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    1. Member
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      10-09-2015 09:07 AM #1
      Mercedes-Benz, Honda, Mazda and Mitsubishi have joined the growing list of manufacturers whose diesel cars are known to emit significantly more pollution on the road than in regulatory tests, according to data obtained by the Guardian.

      http://www.theguardian.com/environme...row?CMP=twt_gu

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    3. Member Nealric's Avatar
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      10-09-2015 09:11 AM #2
      Quote Originally Posted by Xymox View Post
      Mercedes-Benz, Honda, Mazda and Mitsubishi have joined the growing list of manufacturers whose diesel cars are known to emit significantly more pollution on the road than in regulatory tests, according to data obtained by the Guardian.

      http://www.theguardian.com/environme...row?CMP=twt_gu
      Huh. Didn't even know Mazda and Honda even made diesels.

    4. Member Unilateral Phase Detractor's Avatar
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      10-09-2015 09:12 AM #3
      Of note however:

      Quote Originally Posted by Article
      There is no evidence of illegal activity, such as the “defeat devices” used by Volkswagen.

    5. Member turkey_club's Avatar
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      10-09-2015 09:14 AM #4
      sounds like the test failed the class, rather than the class failed the test. At least from that information.
      Quote Originally Posted by motoo344 View Post
      This thread title is misleading, the ls1 one belongs in everything.


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    6. Member Hajduk's Avatar
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      10-09-2015 09:16 AM #5
      Is there a link to the study in the article? I couldn't find it.

    7. Member E CODE's Avatar
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      10-09-2015 09:19 AM #6
      Quote Originally Posted by Hajduk View Post
      Is there a link to the study in the article? I couldn't find it.
      It's the Guardian... they are not known to actually reference sources... So take that for what it may or may not be worth.
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      10-09-2015 09:29 AM #7
      Quote Originally Posted by Nealric View Post
      Huh. Didn't even know Mazda and Honda even made diesels.
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    9. Member turkey_club's Avatar
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      10-09-2015 09:33 AM #8
      Quote Originally Posted by Avus View Post
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      I always hope Honda America will put this engine in Element and sell it here (NA)...
      And Mazda has been doing Diesel for quite sometime. 30 years at least
      Quote Originally Posted by motoo344 View Post
      This thread title is misleading, the ls1 one belongs in everything.


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      10-09-2015 10:20 AM #9
      Quote Originally Posted by Avus View Post
      I always hope Honda America will put this engine in Element and sell it here (NA)...
      Honda was going to certify that 2.2L diesel for NA years ago but said they absolutely could not make it meet U.S. emissions at a reasonable cost and retain any kind of decent performance - they could not understand how VW was doing it with their 4 cyls at selling them in inexpensive cars. I guess now we know.
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    11. Member TangoRed's Avatar
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      10-09-2015 10:25 AM #10
      Quote Originally Posted by Xymox View Post
      Mercedes-Benz, Honda, Mazda and Mitsubishi have joined the growing list of manufacturers whose diesel cars are known to emit significantly more pollution on the road than in regulatory tests, according to data obtained by the Guardian.

      http://www.theguardian.com/environme...row?CMP=twt_gu
      Sensationalist title. The central scandal here was illegal emissions-defeating equipment, which none of these manufacturers used.
      Quote Originally Posted by Doug Butabi View Post
      And on the tenth day of the two thousand fifteenth year, TCL finds out about rich people.

    12. Member turkey_club's Avatar
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      10-09-2015 10:41 AM #11
      Quote Originally Posted by TangoRed View Post
      Sensationalist title. The central scandal here was illegal emissions-defeating equipment, which none of these manufacturers used.
      Well yea......gots-ta get dem clickz brah!
      Quote Originally Posted by motoo344 View Post
      This thread title is misleading, the ls1 one belongs in everything.


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    13. Member Hajduk's Avatar
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      10-09-2015 10:47 AM #12
      Quote Originally Posted by TangoRed View Post
      Sensationalist title. The central scandal here was illegal emissions-defeating equipment, which none of these manufacturers used.
      The issue in Europe is a bit different. Yeah VW was the only one found to have a "defeat device" - for now at least. But at the end of the day, all automakers have been found to be emitting much higher levels of NOx on the road then in lab tests. And it seems that some companies are even worse than VW. They may not be doing anything illegal but outside of the laboratory they are no cleaner than VWs, "defeat device" or not.

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      10-09-2015 10:50 AM #13
      I think they are going to find ALL non-commercial diesels emit more than expected.

      non-commercial diesels time has ended. if all of them are NOT meeting the emission requirements, maybe they can all band together and fight the protocols....and allow the current units to die off???? not produce any more?
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      10-09-2015 11:10 AM #14
      Quote Originally Posted by turkey_club View Post
      sounds like the test failed the class, rather than the class failed the test. At least from that information.
      THIS. If you ever wanted a diesel cars (not trucks or commercial), better get one sooner than later. They ain't gonna be around in few years.
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    16. Member turkey_club's Avatar
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      10-09-2015 11:12 AM #15
      Quote Originally Posted by Hajduk View Post
      The issue in Europe is a bit different. Yeah VW was the only one found to have a "defeat device" - for now at least. But at the end of the day, all automakers have been found to be emitting much higher levels of NOx on the road then in lab tests. And it seems that some companies are even worse than VW. They may not be doing anything illegal but outside of the laboratory they are no cleaner than VWs, "defeat device" or not.
      Right but the title says "...Part of the Diesel Emission Scandal" which is false. The "Scandal" is of VW. They were (as far as facts can prove) alone in the scandalous activity of empowering cheat devices. No one else (as far as facts can prove) was "part of" it. Yea the others have cars that dont meet emissions in the real world, however they arent guilty of anything. They build cars to pass the required tests (airbags and crumple zones, required standard equipment, emissions, etc.). The cars passed the tests.
      Quote Originally Posted by motoo344 View Post
      This thread title is misleading, the ls1 one belongs in everything.


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    17. Member TangoRed's Avatar
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      10-09-2015 11:16 AM #16
      Quote Originally Posted by turkey_club View Post
      Right but the title says "...Part of the Diesel Emission Scandal" which is false. The "Scandal" is of VW. They were (as far as facts can prove) alone in the scandalous activity of empowering cheat devices. No one else (as far as facts can prove) was "part of" it. Yea the others have cars that dont meet emissions in the real world, however they arent guilty of anything. They build cars to pass the required tests (airbags and crumple zones, required standard equipment, emissions, etc.). The cars passed the tests.
      Thank you.
      Quote Originally Posted by Doug Butabi View Post
      And on the tenth day of the two thousand fifteenth year, TCL finds out about rich people.

    18. Member Hajduk's Avatar
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      10-09-2015 11:22 AM #17
      Quote Originally Posted by turkey_club View Post
      Right but the title says "...Part of the Diesel Emission Scandal" which is false. The "Scandal" is of VW. They were (as far as facts can prove) alone in the scandalous activity of empowering cheat devices. No one else (as far as facts can prove) was "part of" it. Yea the others have cars that dont meet emissions in the real world, however they arent guilty of anything. They build cars to pass the required tests (airbags and crumple zones, required standard equipment, emissions, etc.). The cars passed the tests.

      They maybe legal but they are just as dirty.

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      10-09-2015 11:23 AM #18
      Misleading thread title is misleading.

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      10-09-2015 11:50 AM #19
      Quote Originally Posted by Hajduk View Post
      They maybe legal but they are just as dirty.
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    21. Senior Member bzcat's Avatar
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      10-09-2015 01:40 PM #20
      The only thing this proved is that EU6 emission test is a joke. The laboratory test (e.g. hardly any start and stop, and only half load acceleration) doesn't simulate actual driving condition.

      Honda and Mazda both tried to certify the identical engine in the US but cannot pass EPA nor CARB test cycle - the US tests have repeated start and stop cycle and sustain period of full acceleration.

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      10-09-2015 01:51 PM #21
      Quote Originally Posted by turkey_club View Post
      Right but the title says "...Part of the Diesel Emission Scandal" which is false. The "Scandal" is of VW. They were (as far as facts can prove) alone in the scandalous activity of empowering cheat devices. No one else (as far as facts can prove) was "part of" it. Yea the others have cars that dont meet emissions in the real world, however they arent guilty of anything. They build cars to pass the required tests (airbags and crumple zones, required standard equipment, emissions, etc.). The cars passed the tests.
      Quote Originally Posted by TangoRed View Post
      Thank you.
      The end result isn't really any different if you engineer a car mechanically to pass the standard emissions test or you change the software to do so. The point is, they all fail under real world conditions outside of the lab. VW's cheating is just more sophisticated than the rest. It was also a lot easier to prove the intent once caught and they're paying the price.

    23. Member Vuck Folkswagen's Avatar
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      10-09-2015 02:03 PM #22
      Quote Originally Posted by Splattj1 View Post
      The point is, they all fail under real world conditions outside of the lab. VW's cheating is just more sophisticated than the rest. It was also a lot easier to prove the intent once caught and they're paying the price.
      I was just talking about this, every manufacture does things to pass "the test". Im not sure why its so surprising. Volkswagen is getting made an example of. I would bet that there is at least one other company out there with a defeat-device, and theyre doing everything they can to make sure theyre not next.

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    24. Member turkey_club's Avatar
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      10-09-2015 02:08 PM #23
      Quote Originally Posted by Splattj1 View Post
      The end result isn't really any different if you engineer a car mechanically to pass the standard emissions test or you change the software to do so. The point is, they all fail under real world conditions outside of the lab. VW's cheating is just more sophisticated than the rest. It was also a lot easier to prove the intent once caught and they're paying the price.
      We in the business call that a false equivalency. Leave the real world aspect out of the equation, because that is not where the assertion of equivalency was made in the thread title. The real world is the assertion of equivalency made in the article and with the facts. That is why the title was called sensationalist....which it is. It presents something (that these other car makers were engaged in the scandalous activity that VW has admitted to) that is found in neither the facts nor the narrative of this Guardian article.

      VW intentionally did something to cheat a test. The others engineered their cars to pass the test. Those are not the same. It's not "more sophisticated." It is simply this: certain VW's cant pass the test without cheating. The other automakers made cars that can pass the test without cheating. THAT is the scandal. End.


      The flipside/what we really should take away is that these particular tests (like many tests in today's world) are flawed and leave severe holes in measuring real world performance.
      Quote Originally Posted by motoo344 View Post
      This thread title is misleading, the ls1 one belongs in everything.


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      10-09-2015 02:09 PM #24
      Quote Originally Posted by bzcat View Post
      The only thing this proved is that EU6 emission test is a joke. The laboratory test (e.g. hardly any start and stop, and only half load acceleration) doesn't simulate actual driving condition.

      Honda and Mazda both tried to certify the identical engine in the US but cannot pass EPA nor CARB test cycle - the US tests have repeated start and stop cycle and sustain period of full acceleration.
      this is what i've been wondering. How are the tests being done in labs? I can imagine lab vs real world are going to give huge amounts of variances.

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      10-09-2015 02:18 PM #25
      Quote Originally Posted by bzcat View Post

      Honda and Mazda both tried to certify the identical engine in the US but cannot pass EPA nor CARB test cycle - the US tests have repeated start and stop cycle and sustain period of full acceleration.
      That's the key. They didn't want to use AdBlue for a number of reasons.

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