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    1. Banned StormChaser's Avatar
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      07-03-2013 08:58 AM #1
      So, not sure if y'all noticed, but the big Hatt is for sale. Nina and I bought a house so no need for such a big boat. Looking for a 28-32' boat with diesel, a cruise speed of at least 20 and top end over 25. Must have 2 berths (one for 7 year old step-daughter) and accommodation good enough for occasional overnights although it will mostly be a day boat. From a layout POV, the Bayliner 2859 is perfect. It's one of the only sub 35' fishing boats that has a mid-cabin birth. The looks aren't bad IMHO, and the prices sure are right. I know most bash Bayliners, but are they really THAT bad? What about the 2859 specifically? My research shows:

      1. ENGINES

      The Bayliner 2859 comes with a Mercruiser I/O, either a bravo2 or a bravo3, this is the same I/O package that many non bayliner boats come with. You could argue that Volvo is better, but the fact is that many "name" brands come with mercruiser engines.

      2. HULL, STRINGERS and DECKS

      The hull on a 2859 is 11/16" thick 5" to port of the keel. It's solid fiberglass. The stringers are some man made material and will not rot. The decks are heavily covered with fiberglass, I do not know what they are cored with. All wood in the boat is covered with fiberglass. The fiberglass is rough finished in areas not normally accessed like bulkheads etc. These are facts.

      3. WINDOWS

      The windows standard laminated safety glass, they are thick enough not to break, and appear to be the same thickness as other brands. The frames are alumanum, painted and self draining on the sliding ones.

      4. EXTERIOR HARDWARE

      The exterior hardware is stainless, the rails are stainless and are screwed together. I don't know if that's good or bad since welding has advantages and so does screwed together. The cleats and rails are through bolted to the deck.

      5. INTERIOR HARDWARE

      The cabinets are constructed of marine plywood, finished in laminate. Doors to the head, cabin etc are through bolted to the frame.

      6. ELECTRICAL and PLUMBING

      This is the EXACT same stuff found on any other boat. Jabsco pumps, etc...

      7. A typical big block GAS boat weighs over 10,000 pounds loaded and will cruise at over 20 kts, with a WOT speed of 34 kts. Not sure about the diesel.



      Thoughts?
      Last edited by StormChaser; 07-03-2013 at 12:45 PM.

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    3. Member tip's Avatar
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      07-04-2013 12:16 PM #2
      One of the few Bayliners I would consider. (Just personal preference, not bashing)

      I've never been on one, but there are probably a dozen of these down at the harbor around here. Most of them don't sit at the dock either, always out fishing. Looks to be a lot of boat for the money, and I like the way they look, too.

      That would be sweet to find a diesel. I would find one with an MPI 454 and call it a day

    4. Banned StormChaser's Avatar
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      07-05-2013 09:56 AM #3
      Quote Originally Posted by tip View Post

      That would be sweet to find a diesel. I would find one with an MPI 454 and call it a day
      Diesel = 22 knot cruise at 6 gallons per hour. The MPI 454 is burning ~15 at that same speed.

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    6. Member tip's Avatar
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      07-05-2013 11:49 AM #4
      Oh yeah, I bet the diesel is much better. My point was just the availability and price difference of a diesel might be something to think about. I've seen one one or two of the larger Classic or Ciera's with a Volvo KAD and they were commanding a hefty premium.

      But if that doesn't bother you... and since you're trading down from a Hatteras, I guessing it doesn't

    7. Banned StormChaser's Avatar
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      07-05-2013 11:58 AM #5
      Aren't Volvo KADs like 220-260hp depending on year? If so, she would be a total dog with only one of those. The Mercruiser diesel is 350hp.

    8. Member tip's Avatar
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      07-05-2013 01:01 PM #6
      I have no idea, might have been a smaller model too. Maybe it was a KMD? I'm not up on volvo diesels.

    9. Member Maximum_Download's Avatar
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      07-05-2013 01:14 PM #7
      The answer is no, hardly any Bayliners are that bad. I will go so far as to tell you that most people who bash them are f***ing idiots who have never owned one. I know a lot of serious boaters (people who don't give a f*** about brand, they just want a solid, reliable boat to put a massive amount of use on) who swear by them.

      A quick note here: There are SOME Bayliners that were questionable. Most were pre 1984, and some were 1987 - 1990. By now, all of them that are still around now have nearly 30 years of use, and are subject to owner care...which we all know varies a LOT. I can tell you which ones are the bad ones if you ask, but the boat you are looking at is not...it's one of the most loved and most sought after of all time.

      Bayliner cruisers in particular are very solid boats. I say that having owned two - both of them 1986 models from "the bad years" (supposedly...I absolutely loved them). Bayliner Cieras in the 1980s were assembled in Motoryacht plants to a higher standard of quality than the smaller boats. So the larger Bays last longer and are built better (though they still have their fit and finish issues).

      The 2859 is unique in that its one of the only hard top wide beam reasonably priced family cruisers. If you own one and you ever move to the PNW, you can pretty much name your price. People on the Bayliner Owners Club are buying them from the midwest and the SE and shipping them up to Washington because they are so well suited up there. It went through a couple changes - it started life as a 2859 Ciera Classic, then Ciera Express, and finally became the 289 Discovery. It was available with an Alaska Bulkhead (the equivalent of Bay Area real estate - impossible to find and pay up when you do).

      Engines started with a 5.7 and your choice of drives, optioned up to the MPI 7.4 up till 2000, and then after that was a 350MAG/B3. The diesel was an option.

      I would highly recommend you AVOID the diesel. IN addition to being grossly underpowered, it was also HIGHLY unreliable from what I hear on the BOC. Most people retrofit Volvos to them, and as you see, they command a pretty penny. On BOC the diesel is treated with the same respect as a Maserati BiTurbo here.

      If you asked me, the boat I would target would be the 7.4MPI B3 combo, with a newer 350MAG boat a close second. Plenty of power, plenty of durability, and plenty of gas money. The reality though is I think you will find Bayliner hulls to be quite efficient at speed, and this could be a decently reasonable 28 footer to run, even with the big block. If you want more info, I have plenty of people on BOC I can introduce you to who run these, most of them again up in the PNW and Alaska (they are very popular in the Prince William Sound).

      You are correct about build quality - they are solid boats, and again, I can introduce you to a lot of people who take these things out in waters I would never even consider. I gave you my number, call me if you need me.

      In short: HIGHLY recommended.

      Here was our first Bayliner - a 1986 2450 Ciera Sunbridge with a 5.7L Volvo, bought new by my family (not the exact boat):



      And this was my most recent - a 1986 2450 Ciera Sportcruiser, a rare one-year-only bowrider based on the 1987-1989 Ciera Sunbridge hull:



      I also owned a 2000 Bayliner 1850 Capri that I ran for 5 years with no issues whatsoever. I'd take a Bayliner anywhere. And I have - from the Pacific off Dana Point CA in my 1850 to 4 footers on Lake Michigan.
      Last edited by Maximum_Download; 07-05-2013 at 01:23 PM.
      Matt
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    10. Banned StormChaser's Avatar
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      07-05-2013 07:24 PM #8
      Whelp, sadly that eliminates it from consideration. I will never own a gas powered cruiser. Maybe one of the retrofitted ones will pop up.

    11. Member GeoffD's Avatar
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      07-07-2013 10:56 AM #9
      Quote Originally Posted by StormChaser View Post
      Aren't Volvo KADs like 220-260hp depending on year? If so, she would be a total dog with only one of those. The Mercruiser diesel is 350hp.
      Mercruiser doesn't make diesel engines. When I bought one, their stern drive was paired up to an Italian VM Motori straight 6. Mercruiser got out of the diesel business, did a joint venture with Cummins, and got Cummins to service those engines. What a disaster.

      Is this a Cummins diesel mated to a Mercruiser stern drive?

    12. Member Maximum_Download's Avatar
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      07-07-2013 02:27 PM #10
      Quote Originally Posted by GeoffD View Post
      Mercruiser doesn't make diesel engines. When I bought one, their stern drive was paired up to an Italian VM Motori straight 6. Mercruiser got out of the diesel business, did a joint venture with Cummins, and got Cummins to service those engines. What a disaster.

      Is this a Cummins diesel mated to a Mercruiser stern drive?
      I believe it is the 4.2L VM Motori unit, and its around 250ish hp.

      If I recall correctly they have serious issues with the head and its compounded by the fact that you basically need to run the boat wide open to keep it on plane.

      On the BOC we advise people to stay the hell away from them, or buy one knowing you will be repowering it.
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    13. Banned StormChaser's Avatar
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      07-08-2013 11:13 AM #11
      That bad huh? Well, that sucks. Grrr...perfect little boat for us but cant be had with a decent powerplant! grrr!

    14. Member Maximum_Download's Avatar
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      07-08-2013 03:56 PM #12
      Quote Originally Posted by StormChaser View Post
      That bad huh? Well, that sucks. Grrr...perfect little boat for us but cant be had with a decent powerplant! grrr!
      I have to laugh at your assertion that it's a "little" boat, but I get where you're coming from.

      I know you like to boat in salty waters, but allow me to be Devil's Advocate here. Is there a really good reason why you won't take a gas engine? Personally, I really don't see the payoff. You will pay big bucks to get anything like this boat, and thats before you find anything with a diesel. Remember, boats like this (not just a Bayliner) are in high demand up in the NW....even the gassers are selling like crazy up there.

      This boat performs well with the big block, and the reliability alone would be reason enough to consider it. I would also look at replacement costs, SBC and BBC engines are very reasonable to repair and ultimately replace.

      I understand the fuel economy and longevity concerns, but I am being realistic here - you simply won't find a reasonably priced cruiser like this in a 28 foot size with a diesel. And lets be honest - coming from a Hatteras, you could theoretically run this boat to Bermuda and back for a fraction of the running costs that you would get just running the Hatt around the Chesapeake.

      If this boat works for you on paper (aside from the engine), I would advise you to go find a nice one and take it for a sea trial.

      Just an opinion, but Bayliner stakes their reputation on reasonable costs, and not just purchase price. That hull under the 2859 is one of the better 28 foot hulls for efficiency.
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    15. Banned StormChaser's Avatar
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      07-09-2013 09:23 AM #13
      The preference for Diesel is multi-faceted but also may be blown out of proportion.

      1. I've never owned an inboard gasser other than a 50s Chris that was completely open. Gas scares the hell out of me...way too many boats blow up. We just had one go pop at our fuel dock 2 weeks ago. At least Diesel doesnt explode.
      2. Carbon monoxide poisoning. diesel doesn't produce carbon monoxide
      3. Fuel consumption: How much would a single 350 Magnum MPI w/ Bravo III like the one in newer 2859s burn per hour at cruise? At trolling speeds? Do they mind idling for HOURS at a time?

      There is a nice once quite close...

    16. Member Maximum_Download's Avatar
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      07-09-2013 10:53 AM #14
      "May be" is an understatement. This is why I am so hard on people from saltwater locales who say "You need an outboard!" and "You need a Bertram!". I think you might be guilty of listening to a few of these people who have absolutely no clue of reality.

      The reality is the size you are looking for is simply not going to be found in diesel, and if you DO find one, it's going to be so hysterically expensive it won't be worth looking at.

      Allow me to counterpoint:

      1. Boats explode because they're owned by idiots. You're not an idiot. You know your way around an engine compartment, and if you're a real boater, you probably know the difference between your gas fill and your holding tank. You can examine your fuel lines occasionally for leaks. You replace engine parts with marine rated, spark shielded parts. You can very easily open the engine hatch before you fire the boat up, or at the very least, run the blower before you start it and give the output vent a sniff as you are tending to your lines. Literally, problem solved.

      I don't know anyone of MY boating friends who have blown themselves up on their boat. Most of them even have grills on the back of their boat. I think your fear is unfounded.

      2. This is valid, but again on a smaller boat, unfounded. When underway, you will have the window vents open providing ventilation. Put a CO2 detector in the boat if you're that worried about it, but again, I don't know many people who run their boats totally enclosed.

      3. Fuel consumption. Lets talk honestly here for a second: How will you be using this boat? How long do you cruise for?

      It's a 350 SBC. It will run forever with proper maintenance. I used to troll with a 19 foot Grady White with a 350 Merc ALL DAY LONG. It never complained. I think you will be just fine.

      As for fuel consumption, I don't know. I can cross post to the BOC for you and have some 2859 owners in here if it helps...some of them run fuel flow meters.
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    17. Banned StormChaser's Avatar
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      07-09-2013 11:00 AM #15
      Quote Originally Posted by GolfVIDriver View Post

      2. This is valid, but again on a smaller boat, unfounded. When underway, you will have the window vents open providing ventilation. Put a CO2 detector in the boat if you're that worried about it, but again, I don't know many people who run their boats totally enclosed.
      Genset, running at anchor...has caused many a CO death.

      But, I guess I will consider it. I do know my way around a 350 SBC...both Impalas had them. I also admit...I just like the sound of the big diesel boom. lol

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      07-09-2013 01:25 PM #16
      No price range posted, so how about an Albin 28 Tournament Express? Yanmar, Cummins or Volvo diesel.... just stay away from the Peninsular. Mid 50g's from a quick yatchworld search


    19. Banned StormChaser's Avatar
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      07-09-2013 01:34 PM #17
      Need two berths (not including dining table). I have a 7-year old step daughter and need a place for her to sleep...must be separate bunk.

      Price range will depend on how much the Hatt ultimately sells for. But probably up to around $30k to play with. I will NOT finance a boat or car (any depreciating asset)...EVER. So, cash on hand rules.

    20. Member Maximum_Download's Avatar
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      07-09-2013 02:29 PM #18
      Quote Originally Posted by StormChaser View Post
      Need two berths (not including dining table). I have a 7-year old step daughter and need a place for her to sleep...must be separate bunk.

      Price range will depend on how much the Hatt ultimately sells for. But probably up to around $30k to play with. I will NOT finance a boat or car (any depreciating asset)...EVER. So, cash on hand rules.
      I am going to go out on a limb and say "Welcome to Bayliner ownership."

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    21. Banned StormChaser's Avatar
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      07-09-2013 02:55 PM #19
      We'll see. Kinda lookin' that way. lol

    22. Member Maximum_Download's Avatar
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      07-12-2013 11:27 AM #20
      Just FYI, there's some Bayliner 2859 vids on Youtube that show cruise speed. Looks like she'll hold a plane at 3800 RPM, not too bad.

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    23. Banned StormChaser's Avatar
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      07-12-2013 11:44 AM #21
      Quote Originally Posted by GolfVIDriver View Post
      Just FYI, there's some Bayliner 2859 vids on Youtube that show cruise speed. Looks like she'll hold a plane at 3800 RPM, not too bad.
      Not sure I'd call that planing. More like PLOWING. Bow is way too high IMHO. Not fully planed off. Did you see that wake?! The Hatteras throws less at speed.

      Last edited by StormChaser; 07-12-2013 at 12:03 PM.

    24. Member tip's Avatar
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      07-12-2013 03:07 PM #22
      LOL that video!

    25. Member Maximum_Download's Avatar
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      07-12-2013 05:10 PM #23
      It's just something I found, to try and help give you some visuals without seatrialing the boat.

      Comparing the wake of a wide beam planing hull to a much larger boat with a much different hull shape is not fair.

      3800 RPM is likely too slow for that boat, but he was in 3 footers. From the info I gave you on BOC, you should be able to take that video and the info in the thread and at least get a mental idea of how the boat performs.

      You know maybe I just research and ask questions more than others do, but to me, ANY video of a prospective boat on the run is valuable.
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    26. Banned StormChaser's Avatar
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      07-15-2013 10:07 AM #24
      Quote Originally Posted by GolfVIDriver View Post

      Comparing the wake of a wide beam planing hull to a much larger boat with a much different hull shape is not fair.
      It's totally fair. The Hatt should throw a ton more wake if the Bayliner is actually fully planed off. You can see the "whale tail" coming off the Bayliner...that's a sure sign it's not really planed off...stern too low. But that said, when the Hatt sells, definitely will be checking one out in person.

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