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    1. Member 2ohgti's Avatar
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      05-02-2013 12:52 PM #101
      Quote Originally Posted by 6cylVWguy View Post
      That's also quite far from what the avg psychiatrist makes/yr ($186k in 2012 according to Medscape; they are on the lower end of the pay scale in general, as is neurology and internal medicine). And I couldn't see that pay going to just a staff psychiatrist at a hospital unless it was for a psych with many years of experience and a management position, a subspecialist in an area lacking in that area (such as child psych for example), or they had a bunch of other non-practice responsibilities (like also running a research lab).
      That was only one job in Texas and they may have been so desperate to offer that salary. I bet most psychiatrist do make closer to the $186k. I don't know anything else about the position other then that.
      In general the psych field doesn't pay nearly as good as the medical. I have to agree with you that I can see hospitals paying more for neuro and IM.
      The thing with physicians is that they can make a lot of money, but most have to work a lot of intense hours. Some even putting in 24 hour shifts or more.

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    3. Member
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      05-02-2013 12:53 PM #102
      While I see no reason not to go to college, particularly in Europe and other places that are basically free for state university, I also believe that going to an Ivy League school and getting a degree in history while being $100K in debt is DIW.

      I come from a family of engineers and professors, growing up in Morocco where education is the only gateway out of poverty. So, I view higher education as a requirement in life. I ended up coming to the US for an MS in Electrical engineering.

      Yes, people can become wealthy without a degree, but you know many millions of others have failed?

    4. Moderator aar0n.'s Avatar
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      05-02-2013 12:58 PM #103
      Quote Originally Posted by ScoobyWRX View Post
      While I see no reason not to go to college, particularly in Europe and other places that are basically free for state university, I also believe that going to an Ivy League school and getting a degree in history while being $100K in debt is DIW.

      I come from a family of engineers and professors, growing up in Morocco where education is the only gateway out of poverty. So, I view higher education as a requirement in life. I ended up coming to the US for an MS in Electrical engineering.

      Yes, people can become wealthy without a degree, but you know many millions of others have failed?
      Yeah no sympathy from me for people who are in the first scenario you mentioned. You hit the nail on the head with the last point about how many people without degrees have failed at becoming wealthy.

      I graduated from an Ivy League school and by pure numbers, the people I know from college are generally doing far better with their jobs and careers than those I know from other realms of life (high school friends, post-college friends, etc)
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    5. 05-02-2013 12:59 PM #104
      Quote Originally Posted by ScoobyWRX View Post
      Yes, people can become wealthy without a degree, but you know many millions of others have failed?
      This.

      And for Pete's sake get a degree that will get you a real job. I'm looking at you, liberal arts grads who work at Starbucks.

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      05-02-2013 01:01 PM #105
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    7. Member SchnellFowVay's Avatar
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      05-02-2013 01:03 PM #106
      Quote Originally Posted by Chris Stack View Post
      Absolutely, but hard work and fortitude AND an acronym (or two or three) are more valuable than just hard work and fortitude about 98% of the time.

      I agree a BS/BA is certainly not a guaranteed ticket to wealth, but that's a ridiculous reason to not get one.

      -Chris, BS, MBA
      Agreed.

      -SchnellFowVay, B.S., J.D., LL.M.

      BUt in all seriousness, statistics do not lie in this area. You are almost always better off with a college degree than without. Sure, everybody can point to Bill Gates, or the guy down the road who dropped out of high school and started a company that now makes $50 million per year.

      But for the average person, a college degree is still a good predictor of future earnings.
      Quote Originally Posted by cockerpunk
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    8. Banned roadtripper's Avatar
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      05-02-2013 01:05 PM #107
      I come from a family of engineers and professors, growing up in Morocco where education is the only gateway out of poverty. So, I view higher education as a requirement in life. I ended up coming to the US for an MS in Electrical engineering.
      this. everything's relative. but as the quality drops for entry level degrees and educational institutions in general, i'll tell you what you DON'T want: less education.

      by the way, i (my friend actually, but we all had to leave) was kicked out of a party by your king.

    9. 05-02-2013 01:06 PM #108
      Quote Originally Posted by SchnellFowVay View Post
      Sure, everybody can point to Bill Gates, or the guy down the road who dropped out of high school and started a company that now makes $50 million per year.

      But for the average person, a college degree is still a good predictor of future earnings.
      For every Bill Gates or Michael Dell there are tens of thousands of guys flipping burgers at minimum wage. If you can beat those odds, good for you.

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      05-02-2013 01:09 PM #109
      Quote Originally Posted by roadtripper View Post
      by the way, i (my friend actually, but we all had to leave) was kicked out of a party by your king.
      No ****ing way? Do tell...

    11. Member izzo's Avatar
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      05-02-2013 01:12 PM #110
      Quote Originally Posted by 6cylVWguy View Post
      Where are the smooth and curvey paved roads?
      And you need them because what? Because racecar, because TCL?
      What do you need them for when gas there is twice or maybe even thrice what it is in the US?
      Plus there you need (and I bet they have) water jets.

    12. 05-02-2013 01:14 PM #111
      You can't really afford all those things working for someone else.
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    13. Planters (fasciitis) peanuts. Dang dogg Sold Over Sticker's Avatar
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      05-02-2013 01:21 PM #112
      Quote Originally Posted by SchnellFowVay View Post
      Agreed.

      -SchnellFowVay, B.S., J.D., LL.M.

      BUt in all seriousness, statistics do not lie in this area. You are almost always better off with a college degree than without. Sure, everybody can point to Bill Gates, or the guy down the road who dropped out of high school and started a company that now makes $50 million per year.

      But for the average person, a college degree is still a good predictor of future earnings.
      My uncle is amazingly wealthy, and a high school drop out. He's also smarter than anyone I've ever met in person, and I don't think his success is something that is in the reach for even .001% of the population.

      Even my odd job here is possible because I have a four year degree, even in a completely unrelated field. It's worth getting, as long as it's marketable and not something useless. It's not a ticket to wealth, but it's a door opener, and sometimes that's exactly what you need.
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    14. Member nick0188's Avatar
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      05-02-2013 01:21 PM #113
      I think the real issue is people getting degrees in things that will never bring home any money. Arts majors are mostly useless. Business majors are hti or miss...it seems these people either work on wall street for huge money or work for 10 bucks an hour at a crap job or can't find one at all. The millions of teaching degrees. We only need so many teachers, and although you do get summers off, most still start off with salarys close to 40k. Hell, my buddies gf graduated with a nutrition degree, went through 2 years of schooling after school to become a certified nutritionist, and then received a starting salary of 35k! And this was working for the biggest hospital in pittsburgh. I would probably shoot myself at that point.

      The other issue is where people are going to school. If you go to a top tier school, most times when you are interviewing for a job that person has either went there, been there, been to a football game there or had a friend go there. That goes a long way when looking for employment. Like the saying goes, it's not who you know, it's what you know!

      Also, people graduating school get stuck on going back home. They NEED to find a job in their hometown. There are only so many jobs available near your parents. If these people open up their eyes and want to see the rest of the world their are jobs available. The last thing I wanted to do when I graduated was work in the Poconos, and I applied for jobs EVERYWHERE. I'd work in Africa, I really didn't care at the time.

      With that being said, I went to Penn State for 4 years and got a Bachelors in Mechanical Engineering. I had tons of friends in many majors. Out of every person I knew with a engineering degree, EVERY ONE of us had full time jobs withing 6 months of graduating and EVERY ONE had a starting salary over 60k. For someone that is 22 years old, that seems pretty legit to me. Sure, we all had some student loan debt, but I would gladly pay 4 times what I have in debt back to be able to enjoy college for 4 more years. It was one hell of an experience.
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      05-02-2013 01:28 PM #114
      Quote Originally Posted by 1 can 'rado View Post
      It's in my garage now...........I bought it in 1985 for my dorm room back in the day.
      Your five car garage?

    16. Member uncle_scott's Avatar
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      05-02-2013 01:33 PM #115
      I have a degree in Urban Planning, and I now have 6 years of experience out of school. I started seeing 60-100 applicants coming in for base and mid-level jobs, so I decided to get my Masters Degree to be more competitive in my field in the future.

      I am now about 6 months out from getting my Masters of Public Administration. I will have $50,000 in student loans that I will begin paying back in December. I work in the public sector where I will never make big money...but any Director level Planning job or a City Manager job is a six figure salary in Utah, and those jobs come with a healthy pension, matching 401k, and cheap insurance benefits.

      For me school was a good choice, even with the debt. I watch 25-30 year old friends of mine making $12 an hour working at a bike shop or some similar job. Sure, I am not raking in the cash, and I could probably make what I make digging ditches, but I also work 8-5, never bring work home, have a relatively easy job, and I can afford the things I want including a couple of toys. I am not complaining. School was the means to end for me, and I see a Director job in my future with a good salary and high quality of life. YMMV
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    17. 05-02-2013 01:36 PM #116
      Quote Originally Posted by nick0188 View Post
      I think the real issue is people getting degrees in things that will never bring home any money. Arts majors are mostly useless. Business majors are hti or miss...it seems these people either work on wall street for huge money or work for 10 bucks an hour at a crap job or can't find one at all. The millions of teaching degrees. We only need so many teachers, and although you do get summers off, most still start off with salarys close to 40k. Hell, my buddies gf graduated with a nutrition degree, went through 2 years of schooling after school to become a certified nutritionist, and then received a starting salary of 35k! And this was working for the biggest hospital in pittsburgh. I would probably shoot myself at that point.

      The other issue is where people are going to school. If you go to a top tier school, most times when you are interviewing for a job that person has either went there, been there, been to a football game there or had a friend go there. That goes a long way when looking for employment. Like the saying goes, it's not who you know, it's what you know!

      Also, people graduating school get stuck on going back home. They NEED to find a job in their hometown. There are only so many jobs available near your parents. If these people open up their eyes and want to see the rest of the world their are jobs available. The last thing I wanted to do when I graduated was work in the Poconos, and I applied for jobs EVERYWHERE. I'd work in Africa, I really didn't care at the time.

      With that being said, I went to Penn State for 4 years and got a Bachelors in Mechanical Engineering. I had tons of friends in many majors. Out of every person I knew with a engineering degree, EVERY ONE of us had full time jobs withing 6 months of graduating and EVERY ONE had a starting salary over 60k. For someone that is 22 years old, that seems pretty legit to me. Sure, we all had some student loan debt, but I would gladly pay 4 times what I have in debt back to be able to enjoy college for 4 more years. It was one hell of an experience.
      This seems to be a big issue IMO. Too many people have pretty much useless degrees when it comes to money. If you are going into business get an accounting degree then get a MBA after you get some experience. Arts, social sciences, theater, history, etc. go get your PhD and become a professor. Engineering will typically bring in some money, but the job turnover tends to be quite high compared to some other industries. Law, you can make really good money here if you are willing to put in long hours and move up... if you aren't willing to do that you will have a ton of student loan debt and won't make much money. The key is knowing what you are getting yourself into, and if you value lots of money, don't waste your time with degrees that won't pan out.

    18. Member SchnellFowVay's Avatar
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      05-02-2013 01:46 PM #117
      Like so many things, also, the degree is just part of the equation.

      I see so many college students/grand school students who basically go through the motions, aim for a 3.0 GPA, and are then surpised when they end up on graduation day unemployed.

      You need to get out there and market yourself. Sure, caddying for a summer or working as a waiter/waitress will make some income in between your sophomore/junior years, but it will give you zero boost in getting a real career.

      You need to go to EVERY SINGLE job fair/career fair offered by your school. If there is an event where the CFO of a company comes in to lecture, hunt the guy down afterward and strike up a conversation with him. Ask for his card. Wait a few weeks, and then e-mail him a thoughtful question about his job.

      Aim for internships, even if unpaid. I know it's expensive in the short run, but in teh long run, it pays dividends.

      And most importantly, you want your resume to say "I busted my ass to be the very best." Aim HARD for that 4.0GPA, even if you come up short, you still have a 3.90. Scan your friends, relatives, and extended connections. If there is someone working at a company you are interested in, try to arrange a lunch to meet the person.

      The bottom line is that in this crappy job market, you simply cannot just mail out 100 resumes and assume you'll land a job.

      I know plenty of hiring partners at various business firms who would rather hire the guy with a 3.95 GPA from Iowa State who is aggressive and driven than the guy with a 2.6 GPA from Harvard with no extracurriculars. You just need to be that guy. But if you take the worst aspect of both worlds -- a 2.6 GPA from Iowa State with no extracurriculars and no real career aspirations, you are going to end up making $32k/year.

      In the olden days, you might have made $50k/year working a mid-level white collar desk job at a large insurance company or something. Ever since 2008, those jobs have become harder and harder to find.
      Last edited by SchnellFowVay; 05-02-2013 at 01:48 PM.
      Quote Originally Posted by cockerpunk
      this is due to your inexperience with performance driving . . . you really do have to take a car to a performance driving event, track day, autocross, ice race etc to get a feel for how a car actually performs. and you have to have the knowledge and skill to be able to manipulate the car in such a way as to get it and keep it at the edge.

    19. Banned roadtripper's Avatar
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      05-02-2013 01:53 PM #118
      Quote Originally Posted by ScoobyWRX View Post
      No ****ing way? Do tell...
      i have moroccan friends, and way back i guess in '94-99 timespan, i was there a few times. this story is probably from '98 or so. your good late King Hassan II was still alive. we were told of a houseparty. i was with my wife, but my college roommate was alone, and he had been making friends with the older society ladies, who thought he was great sport (platonic) while their husbands were away. we were staying in a pretty swank setup in some family building in rabat. so we get the call, and the chick says her husband is back, and his buddy's throwing a huge party, and we should get dressed up, the whole nine. (specifically, we were told to wear our best shoes.)

      we pull up, and it's like out of traffic or miami vice or something. i mean, we had already been enjoying the good life for sure, but this was huge white mansion all lit up, ferraris etc lined up the drive, disco lighting, big name dj, drink/bottle service, the whole bit. so we're like barely taking it all in, and my buddy is making twinkly eyes with some pretty lady. sort of his thing. and surprise! the chick who invited us tells us, the prince is soon to arrive! so we're all to be on our BEST behavior. which my buddy didn't realize meant ix-nay on the irting-flay. apparently before he took a queen, Mohammed had this beard thing where when he was in a room, all single women were supposed to be left alone for his personal perusal. or something like that! and so the prince (my friends were all very close to his younger brother, who seemed like he would have been an awesome king) walks into the party, boom, first thing he sees is the pretty lady; bam, next thing he sees is my buddy cooing at her; zow, we're told by our host to kindly GTFO before the prince starts making arrangements to have his basement turned into a dungeon.

      i think he was kidding about that part. i think. it was a wild trip, that one. one of my favorites: buying black-market booze during ramadan.

      edit: i just realized now, after re-reading that mostly off-topic response to your question, scooby . . . that that house from the party was practically an exact duplicate of the "justification for a higher education" poster in real life. it had that mediterranean swag look. i guess i never made the connection. of course, in that case, it was justification for being born really well.
      Last edited by roadtripper; 05-02-2013 at 02:00 PM.

    20. 05-02-2013 01:56 PM #119
      Quote Originally Posted by BMP_3918 View Post
      You can't really afford all those things working for someone else.
      Of course you can - lease

      Before everyone jumps off employment and tries their hands at working for themselves, yes, there are a lot of potential out there, and potential for exponential amount of earnings, but I'd caution, for every successful business, there are thousands barely making rent payments, and thousands failing miserably.

      Bottom line, you can be successful and make a lot of money, whether or not you are working for someone - there are no absolutes. Take it from someone who has always worked for a company (someone else), has made a successful living at what he does, and is thinking of "retiring" in his 30s
      Last edited by joe97; 05-02-2013 at 02:03 PM.

    21. Senior Member 6cylVWguy's Avatar
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      05-02-2013 01:57 PM #120
      Quote Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
      It's not a ticket to wealth, but it's a door opener, and sometimes that's exactly what you need.
      x2

      What people seem to forget is that education is a tool. Some people are smart AND lucky enough to be successful with minimal school and picking things up along the way. Most people aren't like this, IMO. Instead though, there is a lot of entitlement such that person X went to Y school and spent Z amount of money on degree A, so of course, they therefore deserve to be making B amount of money. Not true. And when they don't it's always someone elses fault.

      Quote Originally Posted by nick0188 View Post
      I think the real issue is people getting degrees in things that will never bring home any money.
      You see that's actually NOT the issue for more people than you would probably believe. Some people aren't out to make a killing. Some people would actually be ok teaching grade school aged kids music or giving private lessons and making like $35k/yr. Some people do things because they actually like the subject matter and are ok not making bank. And you know what? There's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

      I used ot think that whatever I ended up doing I would just rise to the top and eventually be running things. Based on what I've actually experienced, I have no interest in that. If I make enough for me to be comfortable, then great. I went to grad school not to have letters after my name or to make big money, but because I like science and thought that my research would be a good contribution to society. In no part of that was money actually a consideration.

      The world needs all types, regardless of whether it will put them on the path to retiring at 50 with millions in the bank.
      Last edited by 6cylVWguy; 05-02-2013 at 01:59 PM.

    22. Moderator aar0n.'s Avatar
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      05-02-2013 02:12 PM #121
      This has been one of the most refreshing and well-thought out threads I have ever read in TCL
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    23. 05-02-2013 02:13 PM #122
      In high school my dream car was a WRX. Went to school for 8 years. Became a doctor. Bought used WRX. Still a poor ass mofo lol.

    24. 05-02-2013 02:18 PM #123
      Even when I was 17 and just going into college, I thought that poster was full of crap. There is only one thing that will get you a garage like that: LUCK

      It doesn't matter if you have higher education (will increase the odds) or are extremely bright and full of great ideas (will increase the odds) are extremely hard working (will increase the odds) or have a wolverine's tenacity (might increase the odds). The thing that gets you over the threshold will always be the blind coincidence we call luck.

      Now if they showed a BMW 3 series or a Volvo and said "justification ...blah, blah, blah..." Then, yeah... I'd totally agree.

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      05-02-2013 02:26 PM #124
      Quote Originally Posted by jastevenson View Post
      Contrary to popular belief, 95% of people in the medical field make nowhere near enough to afford that lifestyle unless they're married to a high-earning spouse.

      Of the 5% that do, 2% are very savvy businesspeople that could make a higher salary after getting an MBA and starting a non-medical business or working on Wall Street.

      2% are neurosurgeons and high-end orthopedic surgeons that will come in at 2 AM on a Saturday night to treat your grandmother when she breaks her pelvis in 5 spots after falling down the stairs, or drain a bleed in your brain after you took that curve a bit too fast in the rain and hit a tree head-on at 60 MPH.

      And 1% are older docs that live in a low-cost town, have no kids, and have saved up for many years.
      That's pretty accurate. I work for physicians.

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      05-02-2013 02:34 PM #125
      Quote Originally Posted by WhatBlueVW View Post
      Even when I was 17 and just going into college, I thought that poster was full of crap. There is only one thing that will get you a garage like that: OPPORTUNITY
      FTFY.

      Luck is what other people use as an excuse.

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