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    1. Senior Member Mike!'s Avatar
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      11-26-2019 10:40 AM #476
      Quote Originally Posted by whitejeep1989 View Post
      Is the Model 3 an "econobox"?
      If it is a traditional econobox, as you say, it certainly is NOT one of the best-selling.
      Well, it's top 10 among "cars" (excl. CUVs), though I agree "econobox" is not the word I'd first go to. It's probably stealing more lease-BMW or M-B thunder than anything.


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    3. Member Egz's Avatar
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      11-26-2019 10:47 AM #477
      The average Model 3 sales price is $59000 (1), so that puts it with other econoboxes like the BMW 330 xDrive, MB C300 4MATIC, or the Lexus GS 350 F Sport.

      1: https://cleantechnica.com/2018/08/23...-surveys-find/

    4. Member yeayeayea's Avatar
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      11-26-2019 10:49 AM #478
      Quote Originally Posted by Egz View Post
      The average Model 3 sales price is $59000 (1), so that puts it with other econoboxes like the BMW 330 xDrive, MB C300 4MATIC, or the Lexus GS 350 F Sport.

      1: https://cleantechnica.com/2018/08/23...-surveys-find/
      which are not econoboxes at all in a traditional "14,999$ mk5 jetta with crank windows" sense, but entry level for the "mid tier luxury" market


      Also the claim that this design is structural is bull****. "oh a triangle is the strongest shape" Bull****.
      *edit* I am aware that the triangle is a very strong shape* but it isnt the only design that would have met the needs.

      If they didn't make the truck unibody out of 3mil stainless, and put that weight into an actual chassis, they could still have met their design requirements.

      That thing is hideous just to be hideous, just so it stands out. It is a statement.

    5. Senior Member Mike!'s Avatar
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      11-26-2019 10:50 AM #479
      Quote Originally Posted by Egz View Post
      The average Model 3 sales price is $59000 (1), so that puts it with other econoboxes like the BMW 330 xDrive, MB C300 4MATIC, or the Lexus GS 350 F Sport.

      1: https://cleantechnica.com/2018/08/23...-surveys-find/
      That info's a bit out of date since the cheaper models didn't launch until early 2019. I bet the average is in the mid-forties now, though still far above "econobox" territory.

    6. Senior Member Son's Avatar
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      11-26-2019 11:04 AM #480
      Quote Originally Posted by Sporin View Post

      I wonder if it's going to change some when heading towards mass production. Did they take European regs into consideration, as well? Interesting, for example, how the first thing to hit the wall if you reverse it in a parking garage spot is the body, not the bumper.

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      11-26-2019 11:11 AM #481
      Quote Originally Posted by yeayeayea View Post
      which are not econoboxes at all in a traditional "14,999$ mk5 jetta with crank windows" sense, but entry level for the "mid tier luxury" market


      Also the claim that this design is structural is bull****. "oh a triangle is the strongest shape" Bull****.

      If they didn't make the truck unibody out of 3mil stainless, and put that weight into an actual chassis, they could still have met their design requirements.

      That thing is hideous just to be hideous, just so it stands out. It is a statement.
      There's some precedent in the triangular shape buttress design.
      Both generations of Chevy Avalanche used triangular buttressing to transfer the load of the bed/towing to the overall structure of the vehicle.
      The original Honda Ridgeline also adopted a very similar approach as Tesla, again to transfer bed weights throughout the overall structure.
      I recall reading that the new Riddgeline was able to do away with the buttresses, by adding much more substructure (weight) into C-pillar.

      Considering that Tesla needed to offset the weight of the battery pack, getting rid of body-on-frame construction and associated weight makes a lot of sense.
      I suppose the battery pack probably lives in the space that would have been used for the ladder sub-frame.

      I think the Rivian looks great, BTW, and would probably be my choice (if prices were equal).
      In a few years, we can see if the world prefers the more traditional Rivian design over the Tesla.
      The Bollinger is traditional as well, but it is priced like a Lamborghini, so I won't even included it in the comparison.
      I just think the Cybertruck represent a design/technical paradigm shift.

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      11-26-2019 11:13 AM #482
      Quote Originally Posted by Son View Post
      I wonder if it's going to change some when heading towards mass production. Did they take European regs into consideration, as well? Interesting, for example, how the first thing to hit the wall if you reverse it in a parking garage spot is the body, not the bumper.
      Lots of CUVs and SUVs have rear body work, which extends further rearward than the bumper face.
      I think most Mazda CUVs are guilty of this, for example.

    9. Senior Member Mike!'s Avatar
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      11-26-2019 11:28 AM #483
      Quote Originally Posted by Son View Post
      I wonder if it's going to change some when heading towards mass production. Did they take European regs into consideration, as well? Interesting, for example, how the first thing to hit the wall if you reverse it in a parking garage spot is the body, not the bumper.
      It's an American full-size pickup. Are they even going to sell it in Europe?

      Quote Originally Posted by whitejeep1989 View Post
      Lots of CUVs and SUVs have rear body work, which extends further rearward than the bumper face.
      I think most Mazda CUVs are guilty of this, for example.
      Yep, or when Rav4 and CR-V still had external spares, the spare sticks out farther than the bumper.



      I think in most situations you're still more likely to contact at the bumper level and not higher up, but I guarantee there were a lot of swing-gates and glass replaced over the years.

    10. Senior Member AZGolf's Avatar
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      11-26-2019 01:03 PM #484
      Quote Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
      It's an American full-size pickup. Are they even going to sell it in Europe?

      Yep, or when Rav4 and CR-V still had external spares, the spare sticks out farther than the bumper.
      If they do, it may have different bumpers and/or bodywork for the Euro market. This thing is still 2 years from production, right? It's not like any of the production readiness work is going towards emissions testing, transmission shift quality, durability of the combustion engine, etc since none of those things exist. So to still be 2 years away I think it is plausible they could recontour the back end and bumper.

      As for spare tires sticking out past the bumper, the Wrangler still does this too.

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      11-26-2019 02:09 PM #485
      Quote Originally Posted by AZGolf View Post
      If they do, it may have different bumpers and/or bodywork for the Euro market. This thing is still at least 4 years from production, right? It's not like any of the production readiness work is going towards emissions testing, transmission shift quality, durability of the combustion engine, etc since none of those things exist. So to still be at least 4 years away I think it is plausible they could recontour the back end and bumper.

      As for spare tires sticking out past the bumper, the Wrangler still does this too.
      FTFY
      Quote Originally Posted by 20aeman View Post
      No, the real enthusiast vehicle would be the RX8. It combines V12 Lamborghini gas mileage with Hyundai Genesis 4cyl. performance.

    12. Senior Member AZGolf's Avatar
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      11-26-2019 05:22 PM #486
      Quote Originally Posted by Double-V View Post
      4 years from production
      I'm just going based off of what their website says. They have their first China factory completed already and I think that they'll be meeting dates more easily from now on.

      Quote Originally Posted by Tesla
      You will be able to complete your configuration as production nears in late 2021.

    13. Geriatric Member spockcat's Avatar
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      11-26-2019 06:22 PM #487
      Quote Originally Posted by AZGolf View Post
      I'm just going based off of what their website says. They have their first China factory completed already and I think that they'll be meeting dates more easily from now on.
      Apparently building a factory is much easier in China than in the USA. Can you imagine how long it would have taken to get that factory up and running from a vacant swampy lot to a fully producing factory in California? It would be multiple years. So I don't really see why this would have any effect on how long it will take Tesla to get around to a proper US road legal design for a US produced pickup truck?

    14. Senior Member AZGolf's Avatar
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      11-26-2019 07:20 PM #488
      Quote Originally Posted by spockcat View Post
      Apparently building a factory is much easier in China than in the USA. Can you imagine how long it would have taken to get that factory up and running from a vacant swampy lot to a fully producing factory in California? It would be multiple years. So I don't really see why this would have any effect on how long it will take Tesla to get around to a proper US road legal design for a US produced pickup truck?
      As you said, they can stand up factories in China in a year. With Fremont mainly producing the Model 3 right now, standing up another China factory in 2020 and running the Model 3 and Y entirely out of China would mean they could spend 2021 tooling the Fremont line for the truck in order to be starting production by Q4-2021. We'll find out in a few years how real any of these dates are, of course.

    15. Geriatric Member spockcat's Avatar
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      11-26-2019 07:33 PM #489
      Quote Originally Posted by AZGolf View Post
      As you said, they can stand up factories in China in a year. With Fremont mainly producing the Model 3 right now, standing up another China factory in 2020 and running the Model 3 and Y entirely out of China would mean they could spend 2021 tooling the Fremont line for the truck in order to be starting production by Q4-2021. We'll find out in a few years how real any of these dates are, of course.
      Would it make economic and political sense to produce US bound Model 3 and Model Y in China? Would US buyers balk at a Chinese produced Tesla? Not that the quality would be any worse than what is coming out of Fremont now but just the significance of shifting US production to China. Isn't one of the reasons people in the US buy a Tesla is because it is made in the USA?

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      11-26-2019 07:35 PM #490
      Quote Originally Posted by Son View Post
      Interesting, for example, how the first thing to hit the wall if you reverse it in a parking garage spot is the body, not the bumper.
      That's a really good point.

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      11-26-2019 07:51 PM #491
      Quote Originally Posted by spockcat View Post
      Would it make economic and political sense to produce US bound Model 3 and Model Y in China? Would US buyers balk at a Chinese produced Tesla? Not that the quality would be any worse than what is coming out of Fremont now but just the significance of shifting US production to China. Isn't one of the reasons people in the US buy a Tesla is because it is made in the USA?
      Americans can't stop vandalizing American made Teslas.. would could possibly go wrong with chinese made ones...

    18. Member r_fostoria's Avatar
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      11-26-2019 08:13 PM #492
      Quote Originally Posted by chris86vw View Post
      Americans can't stop vandalizing American made Teslas.. would could possibly go wrong with chinese made ones...
      The Chinese government seizing and then harvesting their parts?

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      11-26-2019 08:52 PM #493
      Quote Originally Posted by spockcat View Post
      Would it make economic and political sense to produce US bound Model 3 and Model Y in China? Would US buyers balk at a Chinese produced Tesla? Not that the quality would be any worse than what is coming out of Fremont now but just the significance of shifting US production to China. Isn't one of the reasons people in the US buy a Tesla is because it is made in the USA?
      Many of the same people who buy Teslas now also line up days in advance to buy Chinese-made Apple products. I doubt that will be an issues. It's just that Tesla has a chronic issue with over-promising and under-delivering on both the introduction timelines and build quality of new product. A hastily-constructed factory in China built by a company that has roll-out issues isn't a recipe for success.

      My guess is this thing will be at least one and more likely two years behind schedule.
      Quote Originally Posted by 20aeman View Post
      No, the real enthusiast vehicle would be the RX8. It combines V12 Lamborghini gas mileage with Hyundai Genesis 4cyl. performance.

    20. Member Engineer90's Avatar
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      11-26-2019 09:59 PM #494
      My feet hurt just looking at this picture


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      2016 GTI S 6MT 2door

    21. 11-27-2019 12:42 AM #495
      Quote Originally Posted by Double-V View Post
      Many of the same people who buy Teslas now also line up days in advance to buy Chinese-made Apple products. I doubt that will be an issues. It's just that Tesla has a chronic issue with over-promising and under-delivering on both the introduction timelines and build quality of new product. A hastily-constructed factory in China built by a company that has roll-out issues isn't a recipe for success.

      My guess is this thing will be at least one and more likely two years behind schedule.
      ... and will have significant changes from what we've seen, numerous minor, some rather major.

      How big a windshield wiper will be needed to cover that screen ... and where is said wiper going to park when not in use? Nonexistent on the prototype.

      Turn signals, reflectors, outside rear view mirrors unless FMVSS changes, that high-mounted front-facing light bar is illegal for road use (doesn't meet headlight-height standards - too high), I suspect the overall width is going to require the commercial-vehicle high-mounted amber front and red rear clearance and marker lamps, rear bumper so that the top of the bodywork isn't the first thing to hit something when backing up, and if they want three-across front seating then they'll have to find a way to have airbag coverage for that person - the center passenger needs an airbag in front of them, not a TV screen. Proper crash protection is open to question for something constructed of such heavy steel. If it's so heavy that it escapes the passenger-vehicle crash standards ... probably folks shouldn't be using this as a passenger vehicle. (FWIW the Big 3 heavy-duty pickups that are >8500 GVWR still have airbags etc and aren't designed with complete disregard for crumple zones and the like)

      This thing is going to require an enormous battery to get the range that they claim. It probably has double the aero drag of a Model 3, and near double the rolling resistance if they use tires sized as shown and with tread as shown. Means it needs near double the battery to get the same range. And the long-range one, double again.

      Lithium battery costs are around US$175 per kWh (based on the battery assembly, not just the cell) and coming down, but even at $100 per kWh (plausible for a couple years from now), if this thing needs a 125 kWh battery to get the claimed range that's $12,500 in batteries, which at $40,000 asking price, isn't leaving a lot for building an oversized, overweight vehicle constructed of expensive material ...

    22. Member 2000JettaGLXVR6's Avatar
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      11-27-2019 03:44 AM #496
      Quote Originally Posted by spockcat View Post
      Would it make economic and political sense to produce US bound Model 3 and Model Y in China? Would US buyers balk at a Chinese produced Tesla? Not that the quality would be any worse than what is coming out of Fremont now but just the significance of shifting US production to China. Isn't one of the reasons people in the US buy a Tesla is because it is made in the USA?
      Apple et al proves demand for US-designed, Chinese-produced products. It will probably be built to better spec than what’s coming out of Fremont.

    23. Senior Member Son's Avatar
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      11-27-2019 06:45 AM #497
      Quote Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
      It's an American full-size pickup. Are they even going to sell it in Europe?

      You can pay the reservation fee through the local Tesla websites here.

    24. Member Sortafast's Avatar
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      11-27-2019 07:45 AM #498
      Quote Originally Posted by GoFaster View Post
      This thing is going to require an enormous battery to get the range that they claim. It probably has double the aero drag of a Model 3, and near double the rolling resistance if they use tires sized as shown and with tread as shown. Means it needs near double the battery to get the same range. And the long-range one, double again.
      [Citation Needed]

      I'm not a Tesla fanboy, but it sounds like you just made up a bunch of stuff there, chief.

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      11-27-2019 08:34 AM #499
      Quote Originally Posted by spockcat View Post
      Apparently building a factory is much easier in China than in the USA. Can you imagine how long it would have taken to get that factory up and running from a vacant swampy lot to a fully producing factory in California? It would be multiple years. So I don't really see why this would have any effect on how long it will take Tesla to get around to a proper US road legal design for a US produced pickup truck?
      The American Midwest is dotted with shuttered Big Three factories.
      Musk had expressed some interest in GM's Lordstown, Ohio factory, and since Freemont was a GM/Toyota factory, Tesla is certainly okay with a "brownfield" solution.
      GM is also shuttering a factory in Canada soon. I bet our neighbors to the north would love attract Tesla to take over that facility.
      Building vehicles in Canada would have a much lower political "cost" than building them in another foreign country.

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      11-27-2019 08:35 AM #500
      Quote Originally Posted by Engineer90 View Post
      My feet hurt just looking at this picture


      https://www.facebook.com/LEGOAustral...type=3&sfns=mo

      Ha!

      Lego got jokes.

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