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    1. Banned by John until they unbanned me zukiphile's Avatar
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      08-08-2012 12:49 PM #151
      Quote Originally Posted by cryption View Post
      QFT. I refuse to believe these guys are the "best American politics has to offer."

      Romney is a tool and Obama forced things on the people without their consent (political rape if you will?).
      Quote Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
      Not picking on you, but how so?
      To my ear, exaggeration diminishes a point. As with writers who compare marriage laws to slavery, the exaggeration itself provokes to examine how the subject differs from the image offered.

      BHO didn't force anything. He won an election and had the legislative muscle to get through what he wanted. Was there something new in the very partisan nature of the votes on his medical insurance law. Absolutely. Could there be a lack of foresight in not offering more repubs something they would like so the law would have wider support? I think so.

      As it stands, the program is something democrat legislators rammed through with little thought for the kind of political horsetrading that makes for laws both parties can support. However that was their call. If you want to blame someone for the current law, blame the dull wonders who voted for BHO primarily to say something about themselves, or those who voted for congressmen and senators who supported this kind of expansion of government power.

      BHO and congress passed and signed the law, but your neighbors voted for the people who did it. So, knock on your neighbor's door and when he answers, punch him in the nose.
      Unofficial Feelings Manager for OT.
      Quote Originally Posted by an admitted and slack-jawed racist
      You called me a "moron" on the Vortex, which is clearly in violation of the terms of use. I reported you.

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    3. Member Tornado2dr's Avatar
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      08-08-2012 12:52 PM #152
      Quote Originally Posted by cryption View Post
      It's only gang rape if it's 5 or more, right?
      535 members of congress plus 1 pres screwing us all the time...that's dirty pirate hooker level gang rape.
      Quote Originally Posted by Turbio!
      They make my ass look pretty.

    4. Member cryption's Avatar
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      08-08-2012 12:56 PM #153
      Quote Originally Posted by zukiphile View Post

      BHO and congress passed and signed the law, but your neighbors voted for the people who did it. So, knock on your neighbor's door and when he answers, punch him in the nose.
      Maybe I will.

      The thing is - I totally see where you're coming from and don't disagree with you exactly. Your points are all valid.

      However, every single person has their own vision of the world and what they consider right and wrong. That's why the House approved a bill to repeal Obamacare. Sure the democratic controlled senate will knock it down but that's checks and balances.

      I guess I'm just so torn really. I'm frustrated that Obama kept the healthcare act going after it hit so much backlash without taking a step back to spend time trying to win hearts and minds for the program.

      I also understand that it isn't really a big deal, and myself like most Americans will not be affected as we get our insurance through an employer.

      I guess I just see in Obama and Romney the same stuff I've seen becoming more mainstream, and the public accepting. Corruption and lying in politics. How many favors were called in to get it passed? How many politicians voted against their constituents to get it passed so they could have the president "owe them one?" I doubt we'll ever know.
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    5. Member cockerpunk's Avatar
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      08-08-2012 01:00 PM #154
      Quote Originally Posted by cryption View Post
      Maybe I will.

      The thing is - I totally see where you're coming from and don't disagree with you exactly. Your points are all valid.

      However, every single person has their own vision of the world and what they consider right and wrong. That's why the House approved a bill to repeal Obamacare. Sure the democratic controlled senate will knock it down but that's checks and balances.

      I guess I'm just so torn really. I'm frustrated that Obama kept the healthcare act going after it hit so much backlash without taking a step back to spend time trying to win hearts and minds for the program.

      I also understand that it isn't really a big deal, and myself like most Americans will not be affected as we get our insurance through an employer.

      I guess I just see in Obama and Romney the same stuff I've seen becoming more mainstream, and the public accepting. Corruption and lying in politics. How many favors were called in to get it passed? How many politicians voted against their constituents to get it passed so they could have the president "owe them one?" I doubt we'll ever know.
      all obama did was bend over backwards in an effort to get republicans to compromise with him, and they never have. what more could he have done to try to win hearts and minds when the opposition was/is literally comparing him to the worst mass murders in history? what compromise can you have when you are literally being told you are hitler?

      the most pathetic thing, is obamacare is quite literally the solution the republicans proposed in the mid 1990s ... the wrote obamacare, and then they called obama a nazi for proposing it!
      Quote Originally Posted by ice4life View Post
      Sounds great. Maybe I'm just a fascist and didn't know it.. I don't know if I even care anymore.

    6. Banned Chris Stack's Avatar
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      08-08-2012 01:03 PM #155
      Quote Originally Posted by cockerpunk View Post
      all obama did was bend over backwards in an effort to get republicans to compromise with him, and they never have. what more could he have done to try to win hearts and minds when the opposition was/is literally comparing him to the worst mass murders in history? what compromise can you have when you are literally being told you are hitler?
      I dunno, ask Bush.


      Now go away, I didn't invite you to my thread.

    7. Member cockerpunk's Avatar
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      08-08-2012 01:05 PM #156
      Quote Originally Posted by Chris Stack View Post
      I dunno, ask Bush.


      Now go away, I didn't invite you to my thread.
      show me the mainstream news network coverage and democratic congressmen/senators that compared bush to Hitler.

      please, i welcome it.

      another conservative attempt at false equivalency busted ...
      Quote Originally Posted by ice4life View Post
      Sounds great. Maybe I'm just a fascist and didn't know it.. I don't know if I even care anymore.

    8. Banned Chris Stack's Avatar
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      08-08-2012 01:07 PM #157
      Quote Originally Posted by cockerpunk View Post
      show me the mainstream news network coverage and democratic congressmen/senators that compared bush to Hitler.

      please, i welcome it.

      another conservative attempt at false equivalency busted ...
      I'm pretty sure you rape puppy dogs. GTFO. Seriously.

    9. Member cockerpunk's Avatar
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      08-08-2012 01:09 PM #158
      Quote Originally Posted by Chris Stack View Post
      I'm pretty sure you rape puppy dogs. GTFO. Seriously.
      ah, there are the personal attacks ... great job Chris at making yourself look like a fool.
      Quote Originally Posted by ice4life View Post
      Sounds great. Maybe I'm just a fascist and didn't know it.. I don't know if I even care anymore.

    10. Member Tornado2dr's Avatar
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      08-08-2012 01:09 PM #159
      Well, that escalated quickly!
      Quote Originally Posted by Turbio!
      They make my ass look pretty.

    11. Banned by John until they unbanned me zukiphile's Avatar
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      08-08-2012 01:10 PM #160
      Quote Originally Posted by cryption View Post
      I guess I'm just so torn really. I'm frustrated that Obama kept the healthcare act going after it hit so much backlash without taking a step back to spend time trying to win hearts and minds for the program.
      He spent time on it, but he did have or make the room to gain wider support. He had a wing who only accepted the ACA because he sold it to them as a step on the way to single payer.

      Quote Originally Posted by cryption View Post
      I also understand that it isn't really a big deal, and myself like most Americans will not be affected as we get our insurance through an employer.
      I do think it is a big deal and I am not confident that your employer provided insurance will remain undisturbed.

      Quote Originally Posted by cryption View Post
      I guess I just see in Obama and Romney the same stuff I've seen becoming more mainstream, and the public accepting. Corruption and lying in politics. How many favors were called in to get it passed? How many politicians voted against their constituents to get it passed so they could have the president "owe them one?" I doubt we'll ever know.
      I will put in a defense politicians here. They make nebulous speeches about hope or change or reducing this and growing that, and people sell themselves on the idea that specific promises are made. Then, when the political process happens and people don't get what they wanted, it is because someone lied to them.

      On rare occassions, candidates do lie, i.e. knowlingly deceive voters with positions they will not take. I think Bob Taft did that in Ohio. But from where I sit, it is rare.
      Unofficial Feelings Manager for OT.
      Quote Originally Posted by an admitted and slack-jawed racist
      You called me a "moron" on the Vortex, which is clearly in violation of the terms of use. I reported you.

    12. Banned Chris Stack's Avatar
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      08-08-2012 01:12 PM #161
      Quote Originally Posted by cockerpunk View Post
      ah, there are the personal attacks ... great job Chris at making yourself look like a fool.

      Just stay the fck away from my dog.

    13. Senior Member FlashRedGLS1.8T's Avatar
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      08-08-2012 01:14 PM #162
      Quote Originally Posted by Tornado2dr View Post
      Well, that escalated quickly!
      And your mother!

    14. Member cockerpunk's Avatar
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      08-08-2012 01:15 PM #163
      Quote Originally Posted by Chris Stack View Post
      Just stay the fck away from my dog.
      id go more with, when you say something stupid, and someone calls you on it, you don't accuse them of raping animals, but what do i know?
      Quote Originally Posted by ice4life View Post
      Sounds great. Maybe I'm just a fascist and didn't know it.. I don't know if I even care anymore.

    15. Member zaYG's Avatar
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      08-08-2012 01:20 PM #164
      Quote Originally Posted by Egilbe View Post
      Who the hell do i vote for? I'm a social liberal and a fiscal conservative
      Gary Johnson

    16. Banned Chris Stack's Avatar
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      08-08-2012 01:23 PM #165
      Quote Originally Posted by zukiphile View Post
      He spent time on it, but he did have or make the room to gain wider support. He had a wing who only accepted the ACA because he sold it to them as a step on the way to single payer.



      I do think it is a big deal and I am not confident that your employer provided insurance will remain undisturbed.



      I will put in a defense politicians here. They make nebulous speeches about hope or change or reducing this and growing that, and people sell themselves on the idea that specific promises are made. Then, when the political process happens and people don't get what they wanted, it is because someone lied to them.

      On rare occassions, candidates do lie, i.e. knowlingly deceive voters with positions they will not take. I think Bob Taft did that in Ohio. But from where I sit, it is rare.
      There were some pretty significant promises about transparency that were broken. That, to me, was the biggest objectionable part of Obamacare; it was clearly rammed thrpugh with little though or understanding; what are the chances it is well thought out?

    17. Member ModestGirl's Avatar
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      08-08-2012 01:34 PM #166
      Quote Originally Posted by Chris Stack View Post
      There were some pretty significant promises about transparency that were broken. That, to me, was the biggest objectionable part of Obamacare; it was clearly rammed thrpugh with little though or understanding; what are the chances it is well thought out?
      Pretty good, considering most of it had already been written and acted on by Romney.

    18. Banned Chris Stack's Avatar
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      08-08-2012 01:38 PM #167
      Quote Originally Posted by ModestGirl View Post
      Pretty good, considering most of it had already been written and acted on by Romney.
      Thats a fun and convenient one-liner to score political points, but I'm serious. The laws are similar, not identixal, and there was so much 11th hour finagling that I dont think it will work out well long term.

    19. Member cockerpunk's Avatar
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      08-08-2012 01:40 PM #168
      Quote Originally Posted by Chris Stack View Post
      Thats a fun and convenient one-liner to score political points, but I'm serious. The laws are similar, not identixal, and there was so much 11th hour finagling that I dont think it will work out well long term.
      Quote Originally Posted by Chris Stack View Post
      I dunno, ask Bush.
      awe, is chris mad when his own tricks are used on him? awe ... poor baby ....

      and quite seriously, obamacare is part per part what the republicans proposed in the mid 1990s, and what eventually made its way into romneycare. not to mention ... we know what is in the bill, why don't you read it for yourself?
      Quote Originally Posted by ice4life View Post
      Sounds great. Maybe I'm just a fascist and didn't know it.. I don't know if I even care anymore.

    20. Member cryption's Avatar
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      08-08-2012 01:41 PM #169
      Wow that escalated quickly.

      We all have our own little universe that we live in, and no two universes are exactly the same. If we are going to continue this discussion we need to understand that it's highly likely no one on these boards will agree with you 100%, but that's what makes this is great is we can discuss (read argue) all these different viewpoints.

      Now be nice, bishes!
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    21. Member cryption's Avatar
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      08-08-2012 01:46 PM #170
      Quote Originally Posted by cockerpunk View Post
      awe, is chris mad when his own tricks are used on him? awe ... poor baby ....

      and quite seriously, obamacare is part per part what the republicans proposed in the mid 1990s, and what eventually made its way into romneycare. not to mention ... we know what is in the bill, why don't you read it for yourself?
      Romneycare is a good reason many GOP folk down here are NOT voting for Romney (and incidentally not at all). They see him as another Obama.

      I just don't understand why people want govt. in their healthcare. Or, at least, American government. I understand it works in some countries, but if the American govt has proven one thing to the people it's that everything they touch turns to crap.

      Misspending? Check
      Corruption? Check
      Wasteful spending? check
      earmarks? check
      Voting for your lobbyist? Check

      Not to mention things like FEMA dropping the ball, our failing infrastructure, TSA making life hell but no safer, The Fast and Furrious issue - the list goes on.

      With failures outweighing the success in modern era US govt (Crob I'm not arguing modern era with you if you check this thread) - I'm surprised people trust the govt with their lives.

      I'll give you that something needs to be done, and healthcare coverage in this country is mediocre at best - but adding government bearucracy to the mix is a recipe for disaster.
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    22. Banned by John until they unbanned me zukiphile's Avatar
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      08-08-2012 01:49 PM #171
      Any sense that Romney's MA law had widespread republican support is misplaced, and the idea that the ACA was originally a repub proposal is false. The balance of the specious line of argument is that repubs were for the ACA in substance until BHO endorsed it.

      I get the sense that Rachel Maddow or someone else I don't watch is pressing these lines, because they do recur despite being wrong.

      It has been a recurring feature of repub proposals for restructuring medical insurance laws that a person be compelled by law to have a policy, to not simply go uninsured. However that isn't the total of new regulation introduced by the ACA and ensuing federal code.
      Unofficial Feelings Manager for OT.
      Quote Originally Posted by an admitted and slack-jawed racist
      You called me a "moron" on the Vortex, which is clearly in violation of the terms of use. I reported you.

    23. Member stevegolf's Avatar
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      08-08-2012 01:52 PM #172
      I like all the civilized (for the most part) discussion so far

      It seems like people on both sides hate our representatives, they are pretty much worthless. What ideas do you guys have to fix this issue?

      I think term limits would be a huge step, limit it to 2 terms or one longer term. So much of their time is spent campaigning, bringing up bogus bills so they can slam their opponents in political ads. They get too cozy with various captains of industry and end up serving them more than the American people. If people were elected and knew they had x number of years to fix their problems and deliver on their promises we'd see a lot less posturing and much more work getting done. If they didn't have to worry about their votes being used against them in political ads they might make some of the tough decisions that need to be made instead of continuously kicking the can down the road.

    24. Geriatric Member ValveCoverGasket's Avatar
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      08-08-2012 01:55 PM #173
      Quote Originally Posted by stevegolf View Post
      It seems like people on both sides hate our representatives, they are pretty much worthless. What ideas do you guys have to fix this issue?
      term limits and public campaign finance/campaign finance limits would go a long way to removing corporate control from our "elected" representatives.

    25. Member cryption's Avatar
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      08-08-2012 01:56 PM #174
      Quote Originally Posted by cockerpunk View Post
      show me the mainstream news network coverage and democratic congressmen/senators that compared bush to Hitler.

      please, i welcome it.

      another conservative attempt at false equivalency busted ...
      Not exactly the same but it just made me chuckle



      Just shows how she's cool with talking down about bush but not Obama. More funny than anything, but also the first thing I found after 20 second google search
      Last edited by cryption; 08-08-2012 at 01:59 PM.
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    26. Member cryption's Avatar
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      08-08-2012 01:58 PM #175
      Quote Originally Posted by ValveCoverGasket View Post
      term limits and public campaign finance/campaign finance limits would go a long way to removing corporate control from our "elected" representatives.
      I also think we should put an end to lobbying, or SEVERELY limit how much lobbying is allowed.

      Politicians that act on a lobbyist over their constituents have no place in politics.

      Also, we, as citizens, need to stop electing career politicians.
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