Fourtitude.com - Tuning CIS -using a wideband controller
Username or Email Address
Do you already have an account?
Forgot your password?
  • Log in or Sign up

    Fourtitude.com


    Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
    Results 1 to 25 of 43
    1. 03-27-2012 08:16 PM #1
      Here is a short report on a CIS upgrade I did a few months ago and it turned out very well so I figured I'd share the results.
      If you Don't want to go all the way to megasquirt you can go half way - keep CIS and add computer controlled tune-ability. For less than $300 you can add a wide band controller to your CIS Lambda setup(k-jet). Then you can use your laptop to set the CIS fuel ratio(s) to find the best tune. I've found this to be the best bolt on I've done to my GTI yet. This mod really made all the other upgrades work very well.
      You'll need a Innovate MTX-L with O2 sensor controller $199 from DIY Autotune(or similar PLX unit) and about $50 or so in wiring connectors and 2 auto relays. I'm not the first to do this upgrade done back in 2005 by a guy that seems to work at Innovate Motor Sports http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/f...ead.php?t=1520

      http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/i...844-p-467.html
      Gauge fits perfectly in the GTI console gauge pod in place of the redundant clock.


      Note where NA motors make the most power(generally speaking more compression will use more fuel). The stock GTI lambda fuel ratio tends to run around 10:1 at WOT. I have found and others confirmed that 13.2 -13.5 is where these VW NA engines make the most power. So the Stock Lamba at WOT is wasting fuel, and not making as much power as it can.

      Installed

      Cheers
      ny_fam

    2. Remove Advertisements

      Advertisements
       

    3. Member
      Join Date
      Apr 16th, 2006
      Location
      Brokelyn, NY
      Posts
      5,035
      Cars
      90 fox, 85 gli
      03-27-2012 09:27 PM #2
      Am I remembering correctly that this doesn't work right for cis-e if you're to use the wot switch to switch from a stoich/lean afr to rich signal? It causes the ECU to disregard lambda for a few seconds or something like that? I wonder if actually tripping the WOT switch and bringing it to open loop for a split second while the output is changed would solve this.

      I'd imagine a good mod would be to use a TPS or otherwise have the switch triggered at say half throttle to switch from lean/cruise mode to enrichment instead of at WOT.
      I really suck at smog.

    4. 03-27-2012 11:20 PM #3
      I can't speak for CIS-e, but does work for CIS lambda. We modified our WOT switch so it is switched when the larger secondary throttle plate starts to open, so its more like you describe.

      I know that others have used a similar setup for CIS-E but I don't know the details, I'm aware of CIS-E for racing applications where a WOT switch may not be used any more.

    5. Remove Advertisements

      Advertisements
       

    6. Member
      Join Date
      Dec 16th, 2011
      Location
      Middletown, NJ
      Posts
      209
      Cars
      '87 GTI 8v 95' Suburban
      04-02-2012 10:40 PM #4
      I believe I have CIS-E so I don't know how this would apply to such. How could you alter the compression ratio up without changing pistons and head etc. Thanks
      My girlfriend and I may have broken up after three years, but then again, I have the MK2<3

    7. 04-02-2012 11:37 PM #5
      There are after market head gaskets that can bump the compression a 1/2 a point.

    8. Member Road Boss's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jul 15th, 2004
      Location
      Crossville, TN
      Posts
      7,234
      Cars
      84 VW Rabbit GTI, 84 VW Jetta Coupe
      04-07-2012 11:52 PM #6
      I need to keep this in mind once I had my charger to my CIS.

    9. Banned ellocolindo's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jan 14th, 2010
      Posts
      4,489
      04-08-2012 11:37 AM #7
      i have cis-e motronic in my 91 passat now. i am boosting it; and gather all the CIS system form a volvo 240t to use. will the volvo set-up fall in the CIS-lambda definition?

    10. 04-09-2012 08:30 AM #8
      If the fuel distributor uses a frequency valve then yes.

    11. Banned ellocolindo's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jan 14th, 2010
      Posts
      4,489
      04-09-2012 09:31 AM #9
      yes it has a frequency valve. i do not know if i will use it...

    12. Member spddemon313's Avatar
      Join Date
      Nov 15th, 2006
      Location
      Des Moines IA
      Posts
      360
      Cars
      84 Gti
      04-13-2012 03:11 AM #10
      well i have a few quesitons if you all don't mind helping out a noob to engine tuning. i just got my car up and running after an extensive 3 1/2 year rebuild. i'm hoping to eventually switch to carbs so i can clean up the bay. i'll be on stock CIS-lambda for a little while though, at least until the break-in period is over for my engine.

      so i've been looking at all sorts of engine tuning threads and tool and tips and these wideband controllers kee surfacing. first off, would you mind telling me how you hooked up your wideband to your car...as in which wires go where? i know one goes to a laptop for datalogging and tuning, but do the others all hook up to the O2 sensor control until under the glove box?
      also, if i do end up switching to carbs, that means the entire o2 control unit is deleted, will i then just run the wires from the wideband into the passenger compartment to the gauge?

      second question, what can a wideband do that a simple gauge on the stock single wire o2 sensor can't? other than instant tuning off your laptop of course.

      just trying to figure out if it's worth the $209+tax+shipping to go with a wideband if this is only a daily driver...yes i want good results and performance, but this isn't a race car

      thanks for reading, easy on the slams i'm new to this tunign bizz

    13. 04-13-2012 08:16 AM #11
      The controller gets programmed by the laptop, then in normal operation you don't need the laptop connected. The controller will allow you to set the fuel mixture where you want, something you can't do with CIS- lambda (K-Jet).
      Once your on carbs you use the wideband as just a gauge to tune the carbs.
      The innovate MTX-L is both the gauge and controller in one. So you just need to find a place to mount the gauge. The wiring isn't that complex to setup, easier to install. You'll need power, ground, switched power, a 3/8" hole in firewall for wires to pass through. Send me a PM about the wiring details.
      For what its worth - a properly tuned 8v on CIS should be able to make in the range of 110-120 hp, with just bolt ons and a good tune. I believe this is part of that good tune.
      Cheers

    14. Member spddemon313's Avatar
      Join Date
      Nov 15th, 2006
      Location
      Des Moines IA
      Posts
      360
      Cars
      84 Gti
      04-13-2012 12:15 PM #12
      Quote Originally Posted by ny_fam View Post
      The controller gets programmed by the laptop, then in normal operation you don't need the laptop connected. The controller will allow you to set the fuel mixture where you want, something you can't do with CIS- lambda (K-Jet).
      Once your on carbs you use the wideband as just a gauge to tune the carbs.
      The innovate MTX-L is both the gauge and controller in one. So you just need to find a place to mount the gauge. The wiring isn't that complex to setup, easier to install. You'll need power, ground, switched power, a 3/8" hole in firewall for wires to pass through. Send me a PM about the wiring details.
      For what its worth - a properly tuned 8v on CIS should be able to make in the range of 110-120 hp, with just bolt ons and a good tune. I believe this is part of that good tune.
      Cheers

      sweet! thanks for the info. if i'm understanding correctly, the wideband will replace the current lambda sensor...does the wideband have the wire to hook into the oxygen sensor control unit like the old lambda has? certainly it must right? because you're making changes on the laptop so the engine performs differently.

      last question...would you say it's worth it to get a wideband if i'm switching to carbs? if all i'm doing is reading the A/F ratio, can't a narrowband gauge on the old lambda do the same thing and save me some money? i understand that the widebanda is a much finer tuning and readout of the o2s sensor, but is it necessary?

    15. 04-15-2012 09:27 AM #13
      Yes the wideband controller replaces the O2 sensor of the CIS setup, and plugs into the CIS system via the O2 connector of the K-jet computer.
      The controller doesn't come with any of these connectors you'll need to make a wire harness or buy one.

      Is it worth it, I think its a very worth while mod but you have to decide if its worth while for the time you'll be using CIS.

    16. Member redpig's Avatar
      Join Date
      Mar 29th, 2004
      Location
      610 PA
      Posts
      3,537
      04-17-2012 12:25 AM #14
      any literature on how it wires up

    17. 04-17-2012 07:14 AM #15
      Follow the innovate link at the top of the thread or send me a PM for details.

    18. 06-03-2012 04:34 PM #16
      this is bad a**! the innovate link up top stopped working though. id love to read it.. def. thinkin this is a must do. notice better gas mileage?

    19. 06-03-2012 10:56 PM #17
      We'll be making a the wiring harness to make this work. I may have the content from that link stored away here, We'll see if we can get some version of it back online. The Innovate forum may just be updating etc..

    20. 06-05-2012 06:33 PM #18
      really?! how much will that run and what will it entail? please dig this info up man!!! ill prob. be doing this as soon as i get my rabbit back......need as much info as you have please


    21. 06-21-2012 11:26 PM #20
      The link to the innovate write up is dead! I'd really like to do this, anyone got a write up for it? I have my wideband and I'm ready to make it happen.

    22. Member
      Join Date
      Nov 23rd, 2009
      Location
      SE Wisconsin
      Posts
      321
      Cars
      91 Jetta NA Diesel, 83 Rabbit
      09-25-2012 09:43 PM #21
      Im looking to do the same if there is an updated link, or anything similar out there.

    23. Member noizze's Avatar
      Join Date
      Aug 18th, 2003
      Location
      Viva Lost Wages
      Posts
      664
      Cars
      90 G60 Corrado, 88 Cabby
      09-26-2012 10:30 PM #22
      I've been using the LC-1 in my cabby for about 4 years now. The ability to tweak the Lambda switch point and adjusting the transfer rate is what makes it all worthwhile for me. For those of you who are try to race an old CIS car, one of these will help you make more power.

    24. Member
      Join Date
      May 19th, 2012
      Location
      Tacoma, WA
      Posts
      575
      Cars
      Early Westy Rabbit (in progress)
      11-15-2012 10:21 AM #23
      Sorry if this is a stupid question. So the tuning capabilities wouldn't work on a cis basic car... Right?

    25. Member
      Join Date
      Aug 15th, 2007
      Location
      Virginia
      Posts
      2,826
      Cars
      G60 on CIS-E and a bunch of other VW's
      11-15-2012 05:10 PM #24
      Basic with out Lambda, it would not work, though on a pure basic setup, you could manipulate the heating strip in the WUR.
      From what I gather in this someone is writing about sending a signal to manipulate the frequency valve duty cycle (lambda valve), in order to regulate upper to lower fuel cahmber pressure. In theory it will work, applicationally, it will take a lot of trial and error, especially if you are dealing with a boosted application.
      I know because I am, although I am doing it to a CIS-E platform (K-Jetronic), with the DPR, taking the Lambda's place and enhancing it with faster and finer response.
      Though applicationally, my setup is a crude hodgepodge of a Hobb switch and playing with a fixed signal to effect the DPR (future plans are a MAP and TPS). All this while using my wideband as a "window" into the running conditions so I don't melt pistons.
      G60 on CIS-E, Now Twin Screw on CIS-E
      https://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...-CIS-E-G-Lader

    26. Member ps2375's Avatar
      Join Date
      Aug 13th, 2003
      Location
      Meridian, ID
      Posts
      12,064
      Cars
      80 Rabbit(DEAD), 94 Golf, '69 Type1 Sedan
      11-15-2012 05:54 PM #25
      CIS does a good job of holding the AFR that you set it to. The WB is a good way to see where the AFR is at and then adjust it. Unless you get close to the systems limits, a good functioning CIS is hard to beat for what it is.

      When we swapped the 16V into the Scirocco (which had CIS-Lambda), that is what we did, as trying to feed the lambda controller the signal from the WB did nothing but make it go lean, no matter how we programmed the WB. We just disconnected the frequency valve's power and set the mixture with the 3mm allen and had solid AFR's from idle to redline.
      Last edited by ps2375; 11-15-2012 at 05:59 PM.
      Tradition is the art of making the same mistake repeatedly, on purpose.

    Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •