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    1. Member VWRedux's Avatar
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      09-16-2009 02:03 PM #1
      Who said the VW DSG is an "adaptive system"? That it "learns" the driving behavior of the driver? Where is that written?
      "There's nothing like a well tuned car on an open road". Paul Newman
      *The New 2011 VW Jetta... At Least You Pay Less To Get Less!*

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    3. 09-16-2009 02:08 PM #2
      Not sure if VW has made any statements but performing the Vag-Com DSG recalibration requires driving around to recalibrating the DSG.
      http://wiki.ross-tech.com/inde...2E%29
      .

    4. 09-16-2009 05:13 PM #3
      I don't know if it's written, but my "D" mode definitely shifts a lot earlier than when I first got my car. It knows I granny it in D.

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      09-16-2009 05:28 PM #4
      Probably because it has been around for 20 years and is pretty much in every car
      http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4875391.html
      http://www.thetruthaboutcars.c...sions/

    7. Member VWRedux's Avatar
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      09-16-2009 06:04 PM #5
      Quote, originally posted by LWNY »
      Probably because it has been around for 20 years and is pretty much in every car
      http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4875391.html
      http://www.thetruthaboutcars.c...sions/

      Okay... this is all well and good, thanks... but where does VW make the claim that their VW/DSG is also using this "learning", "adaptive" "fuzzy logic" system in their Mechatronics Module? Where did this idea come from because not all MU's are using it.
      Where does VW say that their DSG has this? Can anyone post a link?
      Thanks


      Modified by VWRedux at 6:05 PM 9-16-2009
      "There's nothing like a well tuned car on an open road". Paul Newman
      *The New 2011 VW Jetta... At Least You Pay Less To Get Less!*

    8. 09-16-2009 11:37 PM #6
      The last version of the DSG software I saw had algorithms built into it that look at percentages of throttle position, rate of throttle application, frequency of full throttle versus partial throttle and a myriad of other things and applies different shift maps depending on those variables and how constant or temporary they are. It is a sort of fuzzy logic system based on set parameters and limits, but I wouldn't call it a learning system.
      I can't remember reading any press or technical material from VW that stated anything regarding the DSG was learning or adaptive. If it did, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if it was literally lost in translation going from German to English.

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      09-17-2009 12:07 AM #7
      Quote, originally posted by VWRedux »
      Okay... this is all well and good, thanks... but where does VW make the claim that their VW/DSG is also using this "learning", "adaptive" "fuzzy logic" system in their Mechatronics Module? Where did this idea come from because not all MU's are using it.
      Where does VW say that their DSG has this? Can anyone post a link?
      Thanks

      Modified by VWRedux at 6:05 PM 9-16-2009
      Plenty of auto sites describes the transmission as "Adaptive Automatic Transmission". Those are pretty much always blurbs from the manufacturer.

    10. Member VWRedux's Avatar
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      09-17-2009 01:10 AM #8
      Quote, originally posted by [email protected] »
      The last version of the DSG software I saw had algorithms built into it that look at percentages of throttle position, rate of throttle application, frequency of full throttle versus partial throttle and a myriad of other things and applies different shift maps depending on those variables and how constant or temporary they are. It is a sort of fuzzy logic system based on set parameters and limits, but I wouldn't call it a learning system.
      I can't remember reading any press or technical material from VW that stated anything regarding the DSG was learning or adaptive. If it did, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if it was literally lost in translation going from German to English.

      Thanks Jamie... I do concur with your evaluation. [IMG]http://*****************.com/smile/emthup.gif[/IMG] However what's confusing is this little paragraph published by VWAG back in 2003. Please refer to the "Mechatronics Section" on page 28, of the Direct Shift Gearbox 02E / Self Study Programme 308 where it states, and I quote:
      "The Mechatronics control unit learns (adapts) the position of the clutches, the positions of the gear actuators when a gear is engaged and the main pressure.........."
      Also, in a VWAG article published on Wikipedia it even goes further... it says:
      "The actual shift timings are determined by the DSG's Electronic Control Unit, or ECU, which commands a hydro-mechanical unit, and the two units combined are called a "mechatronics" unit. Because the DSGs ECU uses "fuzzy logic", the operation of the DSG is said to be "adaptive"; that is, the DSG will "learn" how the user drives the car, and will progressively tailor the shift points accordingly."
      What gives? Any clarification would be greatly appreciated.



      Modified by VWRedux at 1:43 AM 9-17-2009
      "There's nothing like a well tuned car on an open road". Paul Newman
      *The New 2011 VW Jetta... At Least You Pay Less To Get Less!*

    11. 09-17-2009 09:40 AM #9
      Well it all comes down to interpretation...
      Like I mentioned before, the transmission has a variety of different algorithms or shift schedules that it can pull from at any given time depending on if you're driving with a light foot or a heavy foot (and depending on temperature, requested/delivered torque and a myriad of other variables).
      So yes, in a way the transmission can adapt to a variety of driving conditions and inputs and uses fuzzy logic to determine which shift pattern table to execute. That's it though.

    12. Member VWRedux's Avatar
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      09-17-2009 11:24 AM #10
      Quote, originally posted by [email protected] »
      Well it all comes down to interpretation...
      Like I mentioned before, the transmission has a variety of different algorithms or shift schedules that it can pull from at any given time depending on if you're driving with a light foot or a heavy foot (and depending on temperature, requested/delivered torque and a myriad of other variables).
      So yes, in a way the transmission can adapt to a variety of driving conditions and inputs and uses fuzzy logic to determine which shift pattern table to execute. That's it though.

      And what happens to the DSG/Car and its driver if this "shift pattern selection" process becomes corrupted?


      Modified by VWRedux at 11:26 AM 9-17-2009
      "There's nothing like a well tuned car on an open road". Paul Newman
      *The New 2011 VW Jetta... At Least You Pay Less To Get Less!*

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      09-17-2009 12:28 PM #11
      Quote, originally posted by VWRedux »
      And what happens to the DSG/Car and its driver if this "shift pattern selection" process becomes corrupted?

      Modified by VWRedux at 11:26 AM 9-17-2009
      Its is firmware, which like the tons of other firmware that's in the car (and practically in everything that we use), if it gets corrupted, your car becomes DOA like the Navy Aegis missle cruiser USS Yorktown that when its Microsft Windows NT gave the whole ship the Blue Screen.
      But firmware are very simple and reliable codes. They don't get corrupt or erased unless it is very severe condition. Planes would be falling out of the sky if it happens frequently.

    14. Member VWRedux's Avatar
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      09-18-2009 08:00 AM #12
      Experts here in Washington are telling me that Jamie is 100% correct and you are not.... VW's DSG MU doesn't "learn" anything... it's more like it "self adjusts".... quite different indeed. So please stop going around telling people to reset their broken DSG cars, to drive them around in order for it to "relearn" their driving habits... it doesn't learn ***t... and I do mean DSG EXPERTS.


      Modified by VWRedux at 11:02 AM 9-18-2009
      "There's nothing like a well tuned car on an open road". Paul Newman
      *The New 2011 VW Jetta... At Least You Pay Less To Get Less!*

    15. 09-18-2009 10:41 AM #13
      Quote, originally posted by VWRedux »
      Experts here in Washington are telling me that Jamie is 100% correct and you are not.... VW's DSG MU doesn't "learn" anything... it's more like it "self adjusts".... quite different indeed. So I would stop going around telling people to drive their car in order for it to "learn" their driving habits if I were you... it doesn't learn ***t... and I do mean DSG EXPERTS.

      I'm not sure what the hostile reply is for. Did I get dragged into some other argument that took place in another topic?
      For clarification sake, I'm not a DSG expert, nor do I claim to be one. I was involved very early on in driving and testing some mules of this system and have seen the guts both on the hardware and software side. So I know a bit about it, but I don't have the definitive answers.
      - jamie

    16. Member VWRedux's Avatar
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      09-18-2009 10:49 AM #14
      Quote, originally posted by [email protected] »
      I'm not sure what the hostile reply is for. Did I get dragged into some other argument that took place in another topic?
      For clarification sake, I'm not a DSG expert, nor do I claim to be one. I was involved very early on in driving and testing some mules of this system and have seen the guts both on the hardware and software side. So I know a bit about it, but I don't have the definitive answers.
      - jamie

      Actually you did.... but it's a long story.
      For someone who claims not to be a DSG expert, your deductions were 100% spot on! [IMG]http://*****************.com/smile/emthup.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://*****************.com/smile/emgift.gif[/IMG]
      "There's nothing like a well tuned car on an open road". Paul Newman
      *The New 2011 VW Jetta... At Least You Pay Less To Get Less!*

    17. 09-18-2009 11:50 AM #15
      for what I can tell something after the "reset" via vag-com changes... it drives better, shift faster (especially downshifts) and have a better response...
      too bad that dosn't last long.. after some miles become "like it was" before the reset..
      so something changes.. but changes in Worst....
      I have other issues with the DSG anyway... mine could behave different from a "totally working" one...

    18. Member Jefnes3's Avatar
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      09-22-2009 09:56 PM #16
      Careful gents.... (and ladies too)
      I have pulled the software out of the DSG, and fiddled with it some.
      Its adaptive, sure, but not like some here may think.
      Like so: as the clutches and other stuff wear the mechanical positioning of the clutch plate(s) is adapted over time so that the performance of the transmission is consistent over its lifetime.
      There is simply not enough code (or space for code) to make it 'driving style' adaptative.
      Aside from the fact that there is no 'style' code in there...
      Shift maps: one for each gear up, each gear down and for each mode. (D and S)
      Accel Pedal vs (load factor) 2D lookup.
      for 6sp DSG: 20 shift maps.
      Works like so:
      hold pedal at 30%
      Flat ground = reference
      uphill: shift is a bit later
      downhill: shifts a bit sooner
      -Jeffrey Atwood


      Modified by Jefnes3 at 10:01 PM 9-22-2009

    19. Member VWRedux's Avatar
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      09-22-2009 10:02 PM #17
      I'm sure that your knowledge of the DSG/MU mechanicals far exceeds mine and I don't mean to be rude. But I'm sticking to the words of those who designed it. BW/VW's DSG is not adaptive in the sense that it "learns" your driving techniques and then adapts its shifting pattern accordingly. It simply has several algorithmic formulas that it selects from based on a preset amount of input parameters.
      Besides, Jamie has it right... it was lost in translation.


      Modified by VWRedux at 10:51 PM 9-22-2009
      "There's nothing like a well tuned car on an open road". Paul Newman
      *The New 2011 VW Jetta... At Least You Pay Less To Get Less!*

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      09-24-2009 11:55 PM #18
      Quote, originally posted by VWRedux »
      Experts here in Washington are telling me that Jamie is 100% correct and you are not.... VW's DSG MU doesn't "learn" anything... it's more like it "self adjusts".... quite different indeed. So please stop going around telling people to reset their broken DSG cars, to drive them around in order for it to "relearn" their driving habits... it doesn't learn ***t... and I do mean DSG EXPERTS.

      Modified by VWRedux at 11:02 AM 9-18-2009
      You are getting two things mixed up. A DSG reset allows the transmission perform an auto-recalibrate on many of its parameters. So things like clutch engagement point and pressure would be calibrated to original spec so instances like jerky shifts could be eliminated. Anecdotal evidences indicates it eliminates alot of problems.
      Adaptive transmission is learning your driving style, and from many of the anecdotal stories by people, it seems to be sluggish after a reset or change in transmission.

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