Fourtitude.com - VWMS Rear toe/camber prevention beam info?
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    1. Member secondgen's Avatar
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      01-08-2007 02:33 AM #1
      Not sure exactly hat to call it, and info on it has been hard to find, i have a couple pics of replicas but wondering if anyone out there has more info/pics of it.
      This is what I'm referring to:



      All of those are of the one that Franz built years back, that's now on Bryson's Helios. [IMG]http://*****************.com/smile/emthup.gif[/IMG]
      *updating dead links*


      Modified by secondgen at 12:51 PM 3-1-2009
      Proud Customer of Phenix Engineering

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    3. 01-08-2007 10:41 AM #2
      That looks cool, but looks like it can easily get caught on stuff under the car. What kind of results do you think are to be expected with this kind of setup?
      Markku Kivinen | Agtronic Motorsport

    4. Member secondgen's Avatar
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      01-08-2007 11:46 AM #3
      Quote, originally posted by Agtronic »
      That looks cool, but looks like it can easily get caught on stuff under the car. What kind of results do you think are to be expected with this kind of setup?

      Yeah, from what I've kinda estimated, those "towers" are like 6" tall, on the beam that i've made, mine are only 4".
      It's supposed to prevent unwanted camber/toe change at the rear wheels in a real hard turn. I have no idea how the car's going to behave with the set-up, but i guess bryson would be the one to ask...as i think he's still running it.
      Where are ya bryson.....
      Proud Customer of Phenix Engineering

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    6. 01-08-2007 11:53 AM #4
      I don't understand how it would prevent changes in toe, but I do see the camber. I think you could use traction bars and get better results with no huge carriage and no abrupt components sticking into the airstream/road area

    7. 01-08-2007 04:13 PM #5
      Pretty sure that the smurf is making sure nothin hits the boxes (last pic).

    8. Member WackyWabbitRacer's Avatar
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      01-10-2007 12:39 AM #6
      WWR
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      to race, jokes to tell, laughter to share, and cold beers to drink.

    9. Member secondgen's Avatar
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      01-10-2007 08:10 AM #7
      Nice, exactly what I'm looking for. What size rod ends did you use wacky?
      Proud Customer of Phenix Engineering

    10. 01-10-2007 04:08 PM #8
      you should talk to Shine racing in Walpole, Mass. Dick answered some questions on a similar setup a couple years back and he had mentioned that he had a customer w/ this setup on his car and by removing it they improved lap times substantally...his basic message was that it hurt performance
      i do know however that pulsar racing used to make a similar setup way back when

    11. 01-10-2007 04:10 PM #9
      Quote, originally posted by WackyWabbitRacer »

      fantatsic fab work
      the way this prevents unwated toe changes is by keeping the beam extensions from flexing inwards and outwards [IMG]http://*****************.com/smile/emthup.gif[/IMG]

    12. 01-10-2007 04:48 PM #10
      Quote, originally posted by silvervdubs99 »
      fantatsic fab work
      the way this prevents unwated toe changes is by keeping the beam extensions from flexing inwards and outwards [IMG]http://*****************.com/smile/emthup.gif[/IMG]

      it also makes the a-frame even less independant than it already is, not real desireable [IMG]http://*****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif[/IMG]

    13. Member secondgen's Avatar
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      01-10-2007 05:22 PM #11
      Quote, originally posted by Lysholm »
      it also makes the a-frame even less independant than it already is, not real desireable [IMG]http://*****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif[/IMG]

      How? The rod end's are there so that it keeps that independent action. If the bars were welded in there solidly, I can see your comment having some validity, but they're not.
      Proud Customer of Phenix Engineering

    14. 01-10-2007 05:58 PM #12
      even w/ the heim joints those bars need to get longer as well as swivel in order to allow the beam to twist torsionally, if those were two piece and from the static position could get longer as the beam twisted but still acted as a strut when they were on the outside of a corner you may have something there [IMG]http://*****************.com/smile/emthup.gif[/IMG]

    15. 01-10-2007 06:10 PM #13
      And again I say... traction bars haha

    16. Member secondgen's Avatar
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      01-10-2007 06:13 PM #14
      Quote, originally posted by Audi_S3_ARD:CD »
      And again I say... traction bars haha

      And how would you go about setting those up on a VW style rear? I just can't picture it.
      Proud Customer of Phenix Engineering

    17. 01-15-2007 10:45 PM #15
      you guys thinck this will work on my mk2 jetta,weld those bars together.

    18. Member WackyWabbitRacer's Avatar
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      01-16-2007 01:25 AM #16
      Quote, originally posted by zexxx »
      you guys thinck this will work on my mk2 jetta,weld those bars together.

      No...
      WWR
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      Harry Puckett R.I.P. 01-24-2010. You are gone too soon. We had races
      to race, jokes to tell, laughter to share, and cold beers to drink.

    19. 01-16-2007 09:33 AM #17
      and why's that.CAN you explan please.

    20. 01-16-2007 01:56 PM #18
      Gas tank is in the way!
      Plus, the idea is to keep the ends of the bars from spreading away from each other, without hindering the twisting of the main axle beam. You need to retain some flexability.


      Modified by Agtronic at 1:58 PM 1-16-2007
      Markku Kivinen | Agtronic Motorsport

    21. 01-16-2007 02:09 PM #19
      ok so what do i need to modifie on my drawing?

    22. 01-16-2007 06:41 PM #20
      Quote, originally posted by zexxx »
      ok so what do i need to modifie on my drawing?

      Why do you want to modify it from what the others have posted? I think just the tie bars like in the original can help slightly, but I don't really see the point, other than having some fun fabbing something up.
      What are your goals?
      Markku Kivinen | Agtronic Motorsport

    23. 01-16-2007 06:55 PM #21
      i just thought that it would be cheaper to do this then if i buy a lower sway-bar.but if you guys thinck its useless whell ill just buy a real lower sway-bar

    24. 01-16-2007 08:52 PM #22
      The designs you are seeing above do not have an anti-sway effect. In fact, they are designed to NOT affect roll-resistance at all. What they are trying to do is control toe and camber changes under hard cornering. The tall towers help the bars clear the tank and give them more leverage to control camber.
      If you want more rear roll-resistance, you should definitely be looking at an anti-sway bar.
      Markku Kivinen | Agtronic Motorsport

    25. Member secondgen's Avatar
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      01-17-2007 12:06 AM #23
      Well said. [IMG]http://*****************.com/smile/emthup.gif[/IMG]
      Proud Customer of Phenix Engineering

    26. Member WackyWabbitRacer's Avatar
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      01-17-2007 12:41 AM #24
      In regard to my triangulated rear beam axle, the axle beam is on a SCCA H-Production road race Wabbit with high spring rates and double-adjustable Koni shocks.

      I only raced one weekend with the "stayrods" on the rear beam, and the jury is still out if they actually helped with the handling.
      Even though I used heim joints, my feeling is that the stayrods may possibly bind the trailing arms as they move individually up and down.
      Consequently I don't know without more testing if they are the right way or not.
      Since then, I have sold the race Wabbit, and I will let the new owner decide if the "stayrods" are beneficial to handling.
      Regards, WWR.
      WWR
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      Harry Puckett R.I.P. 01-24-2010. You are gone too soon. We had races
      to race, jokes to tell, laughter to share, and cold beers to drink.

    27. 01-17-2007 10:57 AM #25
      Quote, originally posted by WackyWabbitRacer »
      Even though I used heim joints, my feeling is that the stayrods may possibly bind the trailing arms as they move individually up and down.

      You know, I was really starting to wonder about this. When the axle beam twists, the distance between the ends of the trailing bars and the center of the axle beam must increase. Right? That would mean that the "stayrods" would actually "lock" the trailing arms together, would they not?
      Markku Kivinen | Agtronic Motorsport

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