Approach

Conditions
The data logs were conducted using a Ross Tech vag-com HEX+CAN USB interface with the Turbo button enabled. A Mustang all-wheel-dyno, located at Vivid Racing, was used for the horsepower and torque measurements. Chevron 91 Octane was used through out the whole testing process. Each software flash was on the car for two weeks before it went to the dyno. The fuel pump installed on the car is the "B" pump. There are no modifications other than the software. All data logs were measured on the same road going the same direction. The logs were conducted in 3rd gear starting at 2500 RPM's followed by WOT until redline (6800 RPM's).

Software
GIAC was purchased at Evolution Motorsports, REVO at 20 Valve Tuners, and APR at Billy Boat exhaust. The GIAC was purchased and soon followed by a full refund with no hassles. 20 Valve Tuners also, refunded the full purchase price with no hassles. The APR was purchased since the timed trial would have expired before 2 weeks were reached (they will refund money up to 30 days). APR was tested using the 91 octane program. GIAC was loaded preconfigured for 91 octane. The REVO flash was set with timing at 1 and boost at 6 (set by 20 Valve Tuners).

Results

Air:Fuel - block 31 (calculated by Lambda actual * 14.7)

Fuel Rail Pressure - block 106 note check scale it is not 60 - 120

Boost - block 115 (calculated by (boost actual - 920) * .0145) note 920 is the pressure inside the turbo at idle here in Arizona.

Timing correction Factors (all cylinders) - block 20

Timing - block 11

All the exhaust gas temperatures were within normal limits at or below 810 degrees C.

Dyno - note all the dyno numbers are uncorrected. Corrected numbers will be here soon as vivid racing fixes there printer.

APR vs Stock

GIAC vs Stock

REVO vs Stock

order top to bottom = APR - REVO - GIAC

Analysis and Conclusions
The testing went very well. There were many miles driven, a lot of time spent, many risks taken and much money blown, but I enjoyed meeting all the tuners and talking with the software companies. I am in no way affiliated with any software company, and did my best to keep the results fair and even. This report is my personal doing that I am nice enough to share with everyone with hopes of creating some very good technical discussions. I drove way to many miles (at least 110 miles each way 5 times) and spent too much money to have a pissing contest because of personal preferences. Not to mention that I beat the piss out of my baby. I went WOT in the last 6 weeks more than most people will in their A4's life. I am sorry baby... please forgive me!

That being said - I want to thank Mitch at Vivid Racing for doing all my dyno runs, Chris at 20 Valve tuners for loading and adjusting the REVO software, Anders at Evolution Motorsports for loading the GIAC, and Eric and Billy at Billy Boat exhaust for flashing my ECU with APR (and thanks to everyone for flashing me back to stock). If anyone is in the Phoenix area please pay these guys a visit - they were all good to me. Thanks again guys!

In the future I plan on testing new software revisions along with some hardware modifications. GIAC and APR informed me they were testing new software products at the time this article was written.

My personal feelings (yes opinions) not meant to start a pissing contest, just what I felt. APR felt very smooth, so smooth I was surprised at the power it made. APR has the smoothest shifts (don't seem to loose power between shifts). The REVO has a blast of torque that can be felt, but doesn't seem to hold its power as long. The GIAC felt similar to stock, but not as smooth (kind of choppy).

My rating
1. APR
2. REVO
3. GIAC

Modified by parks853 at 3:41 PM 2/21/2006

1. The REVO program was not set to optimal settings for fuel grade.

2. There is reason to believe that the car was reflashed with stock software instead of GIAC.

3. If the car was running GIAC there was something not right and the dealer should have tried to fix it but they were not provided the opportunity.

4. The data here representing the GIAC software is no where close to results found on other cars running the exact software that is supposedly being run here.

5. Even if the GIAC software was correct and got the expected results it would have been down on power compared to the REVO and APR chips as GIAC as of right now only has the "SPORT" chip available which is their detuned weaksauce street chip. Their X and/or FX program should be released soon from what I understand which would provide for better comparison with REVO/APR

In conclusion this info is basically already out of date as there is new versions of software from all 3 companys out or nearing release.

This comparison shows that you should go with which ever chip is best represented in your area by a strong, KNOWLEDGABLE dealer. With the current versions all 3 chips are neck and neck I am sure so it's all about the customer support and service.

With the above said thanks for your efforts Parks, though I would have done some things different.

Modified by Todeshandler at 4:24 PM 2-22-2006

MJB Motorsport/

Audi S4 Compilation Video!!!

"Chris at 20 Valve tuners for loading and adjusting the REVO software, Anders at Evolution Motorsports for loading the GIAC, and Eric and Billy at Billy Boat exhaust for flashing my ECU with APR"

1.Todeshandler,
So are you saying that Chris at 20 Valve Tuners doesn't know how to flash Revo software for his area fuel or do you mean the customer must Know/check and specify what settings the tuner uses when getting a REVO flash since at the present time the sps is not available to let the customer make any changes without the dealer doing it for him?

I would have liked to see the chip set the way George from Revo posted it should have been, but that's the point, it wasn't set to optimal settings and that could happen to anyone getting the Revo chip. As for now it is up to the dealers that flash the Revo software to use the correct settings.

No place on the revo site for setting options i can find, please correct me if i am wrong and show me where to find the recommended Revo settings

2.Todeshandler,
How about Giac, Evolution Motorsport's Anders doesn't know what chip flash to use or make sure the flash burned in properly or is that also the customers job in your opinion?

3.
Todeshandler, You say
"If the car was running GIAC there was something not right and the dealer should have tried to fix it but they were not provided the opportunity".

Giac is a single flash that is not adjustable, the only thing a Dealer could do is flash a more aggressive chip that is not recommended by Giac for 91 octane A4 at this time.

How do you know that the dealer was not provided the opportunity.
He had the car, flashed the chip. Not all customers have Vag Coms to log results or go to dynos or even know the exact performance gains, other then what they are told.

I think the run of the mill everyday chip customer would have been happy with his Giac flash and not known the difference till someone came along with their Revo or apr flashed car and blew him away.

4.
I would like to see the data showing better gains for Giac on A4 with no other modifications...please point me to it.

5.
Well i think you say it all in your #5 and answer all the previous Giac concerns you had. I agree and am waiting to see a more powerful chip from Giac also

As for this info being out of date, I don't see the sps unit out, it might be weeks away who knows maybe more,what we do know is this is what they have now
As for Giac and APR the same holds true as of today.

JMHO

Modified by allcool at 9:21 PM 2-22-2006

1. The REVO software was logged at the dealer after loading the software. Considering the 12.1 aif:fuel ratio I did not feel comfortable running more timing, until I did some research. I emailed REVO with no response. I cannot change the fact that did not return my email. Maybe after talking to them I would have had more optimal settings with the REVO. I tested what I had which I assumed were good settings. The car ran good. I have no problems with REVO. I would just rather not run 12:1 AFR on my car (there was no mention that could be changed). This is a very likely situation that could happen to others with REVO. People that like to tinker and test their cars will have an added value with the REVO. If one is not interested in logging their car, and dynoing them then maybe REVO is not for them. If the SPS - unit were out I would have tried lots of settings. One could do a whole write up on their results with different REVO settings.

2. Anders knew I was going to dyno the car. Why would he load a stock file? I was told by him not to expect a lot out of the file. I was also asked by him to load an unofficial file 2 weeks later (right before my dyno run) before x, and fx files were even mentioned by Jeff Moss. Which later Anders mentioned and now wants me to dyno on my car. I had to make a decision.. load some unofficial software that no one else can get, or test what is out there now from GIAC. I chose to test their latest official software. I was not testing to help one company shine (and was not going to except unofficial software copies). I wanted software for my car at this time right now. That does not mean that I cannot test other software in the future. The car was boosting over 15 psi and we know that is not stock, and like I have said before the car was not smooth at all. It could not have been stock.

3. The dealer cannot fix it when GIAC does not have any other official releases of software. It is not like REVO where the settings can be changed.

4. So who’s data is to believe - mine or someone else’s? That is for everyone to decide (even after everyone tries to discredit me it is ultimately for ones own self to decide). I do know on one of the forums there were 2 guys that got flashed back to stock after their GIAC was not satisfactory. They said the cars felt like stock. So maybe there are some old files floating around out there?? I am not sure, but I am not to blame for what got loaded on my car.

5. The dyno is not going anywhere. I really want to test that FX chip. It is supposed to be for the F pump cars. I really want to test it on my B pump. I think it will make for some interesting results.
I think all the software companies are good. It does depend on other things than just dyno logs, personal preference being one of them. Does one want to just get loaded and forget it, or be able to adjust things? That puts REVO in it’s own class. You can judge by what someone says.. or who you had good luck with in the past. This test was done to help me decide. I spent a lot of time trying to keep everything fair and preparing it for viewing. I wanted to share it with the community in hopes of discussing the results in a constructive manner. It is obvious that people have their favorites and like to back them.

I also like to keep the companies honest. In this article I have already proved that GIAC's fuel concerns are not always true. I had lots of boost and lots of torque down low at 3000 RPM's and had no fueling issues. The fueling issue was one of my main driving factors in starting this testing.

Maybe this article is already dated, but if someone wanted software tomorrow it will still be of use (and can be easily updated). Plus, with everyone’s comments and input hopefully as new software releases are possible they can be discussed. Other people can bring their results to this forum. It helps everyone to be more careful at the REVO dealer. It will help REVO better inform their distributors (it so happens in this case their ability to change things hurt them). This article in my opinion is very useful. I have done something that no one else has ever done independently. Hopefully now I will not be the first and last.. and everyone can learn from me and this article about how to prepare and what to expect on such a project. They have to be prepared to receive praise and criticism of which can be taken seriously or with a grain of salt!

I have never claimed to be perfect and have learned a lot from my experiences. I am very happy overall with my results and feel confident that I provided the best possible results at my disposal.

Thanks for devoting your time, effort, and resources to this project. Clearly you have and will benefit from this work but many of us do not have the time or knowledge to do the testing you did.

How would the curves change if using 93 oct fuel? Is it possible that the curves would change rather than just move up?

What is interesting to me about this is that it is possible that I may not chip my car at all. This test shows that I need to know much more than I care to about "chipping" in order to get the best performance OR I need to have a great shop than can support me.

The closest shop to me is REVO so I'm going to call the shop and try to figure out if they can deliver optimal results. I find the 2.0T a bit of a dog but not enough to drive more than an hour or so to get a chip from a different dealer who isn't close enough to help me if I have issues.

I was hoping that REVO's curves would be attractive but I'm not real excited with what I see there especially after 4700 RPMs.

Hopefully we'll see more dynos for APR and REVO.

Your trying to say that GIAC is being dishonest in someway by saying a fuel pump, that has been discontinued mind you, may have problems under certain conditions? Do you think they just made up the test data they've posted? What could they possibly gain by being dishonest about it?

If you wanted to test the fueling issue, I'm sorry to say you went about it the wrong way, and have proven or disproved nothing. All of the reported pump problems have been on cars with a turbo back exhaust, which you do not have. I don't think it's a surprise you didn't have a problem. Also the software that supposedly caused the issue Jeff Moss posted about was not included in your test.

Quote, originally posted by 20th-Hole »

Your trying to say that GIAC is being dishonest in someway by saying a fuel pump, that has been discontinued mind you, may have problems under certain conditions? Do you think they just made up the test data they've posted? What could they possibly gain by being dishonest about it? If you wanted to test the fueling issue, I'm sorry to say you went about it the wrong way, and have proven or disproved nothing. All of the reported pump problems have been on cars with a turbo back exhaust, which you do not have. I don't think it's a surprise you didn't have a problem. Also the software that supposedly caused the issue Jeff Moss posted about was not included in your test.

Not trying to say they are being dishonest, but not 100% correct. No one still knows why the pump was discontinued. The specs on the two pumps are identical. The F pump was a bleed valve that the B dont. Maybe the B pump had to low of tolerances. No one knows for sure. It may have problems but I never saw any issues with high boost (20psi) and almost 250 feet pounds of torque to the wheels with REVO. Why would they make up the data, I dont think they would. But it does not hold true on my car, or anyone elses cars. They had problems with one car, and now say that everyone needs to buy their new pumps.

I have proved that their are no fueling issues on my B pump car with lots of torque and very high boost. I had no issues with software from three different companies. I tested everything that was released at the time of testing. I dont really care about some development software that was written to make the pump fail. Or that was tested on an already known to be bad B pump. Would a catback exhaust really make a big difference with fuel pressure? His origianl post about brand "x" stated nothing about an exhaust. There are many issues and topics that have been discussed in the numerous fueling issue posts. I have proved many of them to be false.

Actually I believe the Fortitude Project A3 car had fueling issues with APR software. I can't speak of the details; I can only go by his post.
What’s interesting is the post was made about a month and a half after Jeff Moss originally posted about the fueling issues.

I quote....."but the fuel issue is cured and the car does not hesitate at all from 4000-6000 rpms one bit. Remapping the fuel probably backed down the torque a lil bit but that doesn't bother me at all. He also said that they are going to keep working on things as they learn about this new engine."

http://forums.fourtitude.com/zerothread?id=2414207

Maybe ProjectA3 can fill in the rest of the details, what type of pump etc.

I don't think GIAC is selling any pumps. If you'd like a new pump you can get one from the dealer.

Quote, originally posted by parks853 »

Or that was tested on an already known to be bad B pump. Would a catback exhaust really make a big difference with fuel pressure? His original post about brand "x" stated nothing about an exhaust.

I believe they replicated the problem on two different pumps, and yes a TURBO BACK exhaust would probably make a big difference. The factory cats are very restrictive. Full exhausts have shown big power gains which means more fuel is needed. (See link above)

Quote, originally posted by parks853 »

There are many issues and topics that have been discussed in the numerous fueling issue posts. I have proved many of them to be false.

Again I don't think you've disproved anything. GIAC's stance is that the B pump is flawed and weaker than the F pump under certain conditions. These conditions being high boost with a free flowing exhaust. I don't think you can replicate these conditions on your car.

One of the fourtitude advertisers- PD Performace- is offering a serious discount on REVO.

http://www.dvagonline.com/viewtopic.php?t=266

The Volvo C30 Thread

I can see that you’re passionate about your car and I respect your efforts. Hopefully all of the tuners have leaned a lot in the last few months and I'd hope that any potential fueling issues are a thing of the past.

06 GTI 2.0T

The Hit List (Potential candidates)
-B6 A4 Avant
-BMW 135i

I have made no progress.

all the companies tested have released new software or revisions to their original software since this was posted. Dont know if I will do this again.

06 GTI 2.0T

The Hit List (Potential candidates)
-B6 A4 Avant
-BMW 135i

It said that if you flash Revo or APR it will count as a flash and the dealer can cross reference the number of times the car has been flashed. Where the GIAC doesn't show that the car has been flashed since they figured out a way to flash and bypass the flash counter.

Any heard about this?

Thanks

06 GTI 2.0T

The Hit List (Potential candidates)
-B6 A4 Avant
-BMW 135i