Fourtitude.com - Tesla Model 3 prototype revealed - On-sale in late 2017 with a 215-mile minimum range and a base price of $35,000
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    1. 05-19-2017 12:38 PM #1251
      Quote Originally Posted by dubdaze68 View Post
      Wonder whether it was a componentry packaging issue, or a crash standard problem? Or, just a focus group or tooling snafu.
      I suspect that complaints about the mail-slot trunk opening were heard. It's also possible that the longer tail improves aerodynamics a little bit.

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    3. Member OOOO-A3's Avatar
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      05-19-2017 12:57 PM #1252
      Quote Originally Posted by dubdaze68 View Post
      Wonder whether it was a componentry packaging issue, or a crash standard problem? Or, just a focus group or tooling snafu.
      He promised bikes would fit: https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/716731407310196736

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      05-19-2017 02:36 PM #1253
      Plus everyone on Jalopnik was complaining that it wasn't a hatchback - they hate trunks.

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      05-19-2017 03:14 PM #1254
      Quote Originally Posted by Ryukein View Post
      After looking at your images and then recent spy photos (and Motor Trend's Model 3 photos), I'm not sure. It might just be a perspective thing. But aside from the rear, your overlays do match up really well...
      I made another overlay and replaced the concept rendering from Tesla's website with an actual photograph of one of the alpha cars from the concept reveal.
      The perspective still isn't perfect, but this makes it look a lot like the dimensions are going to be the same as what we've seen in the photos.

      Blue is the concept, red is the body-in-white.


      Here's a GIF taken from this thread to add to the confusion.




      Will just have to wait and see what is revealed at the event in July.
      Last edited by Relax; 05-19-2017 at 03:21 PM.

    6. Member turbinepowered's Avatar
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      05-19-2017 03:16 PM #1255
      Quote Originally Posted by gcodori View Post
      Plus everyone on Jalopnik was complaining that it wasn't a hatchback - they hate trunks.
      The lack-of-hatchback is what swayed my own deposit back into savings.

      *shrug*
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      There is an area of a normal brain that lets the owner know the object works and needs to be left alone. Not all of us have it. It is like being colorblind.

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      05-19-2017 03:32 PM #1256
      Quote Originally Posted by turbinepowered View Post
      The lack-of-hatchback is what swayed my own deposit back into savings.

      *shrug*
      Jalopnik is waiting for the manual brown wagon version.

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    8. Senior Member Ryukein's Avatar
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      05-19-2017 03:42 PM #1257
      Quote Originally Posted by Relax View Post
      I made another overlay and replaced the concept rendering from Tesla's website with an actual photograph of one of the alpha cars from the concept reveal.
      The perspective still isn't perfect, but this makes it look a lot like the dimensions are going to be the same as what we've seen in the photos.
      Awesome, thanks!

      From these it looks like the trunk itself is larger, but the rest of the rear has stayed the same

      I can't tell if they've had to change the rear glass.
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      Quote Originally Posted by ClothSeats View Post
      In after Ryukein seal of approval.
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      Your photos don't qualify for the Ryukein seal of approval
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    9. Senior Member bzcat's Avatar
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      05-19-2017 05:41 PM #1258
      Quote Originally Posted by Ryukein View Post
      Awesome, thanks!

      From these it looks like the trunk itself is larger, but the rest of the rear has stayed the same

      I can't tell if they've had to change the rear glass.
      Well, the car doesn't have rear glass... which IS the problem. It's one piece roof that rolls over to where the hatchback is supposed to go. That one piece glass has got to be the most expensive part of the car besides the batteries so it is highly doubtful they changed it at this late stage of development. If they change the glass, which is part of the safety cell structure, they'd have to re-engineer the entire car structurally because it will affect the safety cell and crash test performance.

      The change must be restricted to cosmetic and non-structure portion. So they can tinker with the height of rear fender and width and length of the trunk lid. That's about it. That one piece roof is basically just a repeat of the falcon wing door fiasco - Elon decreed it to be a must have feature so they designed the rest of the car around it.
      Last edited by bzcat; 05-19-2017 at 05:44 PM.

    10. 05-19-2017 05:53 PM #1259
      In fairness, that big piece of glass doesn't have any moving parts in it.

      A hailstorm, or stray baseball, could be expensive (and it's a bigger target). A sunny day could put a lot of demand on the air conditioning (not a good thing in an electric car). It probably presents manufacturing challenges. But it isn't going to accidentally open, or fail to open ...

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      05-19-2017 06:08 PM #1260
      Quote Originally Posted by chois View Post
      Isn't the UAW trying to organize this facility?
      It does not take much imagination to connect the publishing of this article with that effort.
      It doesn't matter if Venezuelan commies helped publish it. If that (100) ambulance visits in the last few years is valid then that is seriously indicative of the pressures that they are trying to get through. If there are a couple three visits per typical auto plant per year then that is normal, but that many.... to one plant? That's a trifle high.

    12. Senior Member Ryukein's Avatar
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      05-19-2017 07:07 PM #1261
      Quote Originally Posted by bzcat View Post
      The change must be restricted to cosmetic and non-structure portion. So they can tinker with the height of rear fender and width and length of the trunk lid. That's about it. That one piece roof is basically just a repeat of the falcon wing door fiasco - Elon decreed it to be a must have feature so they designed the rest of the car around it.
      Yeah that's what I'm thinking too.
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      Quote Originally Posted by ClothSeats View Post
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      05-20-2017 04:40 PM #1262
      Quote Originally Posted by uncleho View Post
      It doesn't matter if Venezuelan commies helped publish it. If that (100) ambulance visits in the last few years is valid then that is seriously indicative of the pressures that they are trying to get through. If there are a couple three visits per typical auto plant per year then that is normal, but that many.... to one plant? That's a trifle high.
      OK. Here is a published counterpoint.
      http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/05/1...ce-conditions/
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      05-21-2017 12:14 AM #1263
      Quote Originally Posted by GoFaster View Post
      A hailstorm, or stray baseball, could be expensive (and it's a bigger target).
      But it is with a conventional back windshield or metal roof too, isn't it?

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      05-21-2017 12:18 AM #1264
      Quote Originally Posted by uncleho View Post
      It doesn't matter if Venezuelan commies helped publish it. If that (100) ambulance visits in the last few years is valid then that is seriously indicative of the pressures that they are trying to get through. If there are a couple three visits per typical auto plant per year then that is normal, but that many.... to one plant? That's a trifle high.
      Yeah, I don't think the "crunch mode" attitude from traditional software development world will apply well to car manufacturing. Ironically, software development these days is actually becoming more inspired by 80's Toyota lean manufacturing principles (see DevOps, Agile etc)

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      05-21-2017 12:36 AM #1265
      Quote Originally Posted by Yuppie Scum View Post
      Yeah, I don't think the "crunch mode" attitude from traditional software development world will apply well to car manufacturing. Ironically, software development these days is actually becoming more inspired by 80's Toyota lean manufacturing principles (see DevOps, Agile etc)
      Unlike manufacturing principles however, there is no clear definition of what DevOps actually stands for and every company seem to have their own interpretation of that.
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      05-21-2017 12:42 AM #1266
      Quote Originally Posted by uncleho View Post
      It doesn't matter if Venezuelan commies helped publish it. If that (100) ambulance visits in the last few years is valid then that is seriously indicative of the pressures that they are trying to get through. If there are a couple three visits per typical auto plant per year then that is normal, but that many.... to one plant? That's a trifle high.
      Somebody has to build the cars that will save our planet. These noble workers should be put on a pedestal and have praise lauded on them

    18. 05-21-2017 08:44 AM #1267
      Quote Originally Posted by GoFaster View Post
      A hailstorm, or stray baseball, could be expensive (and it's a bigger target). A sunny day could put a lot of demand on the air conditioning (not a good thing in an electric car). It probably presents manufacturing challenges. But it isn't going to accidentally open, or fail to open ...
      Quote Originally Posted by Yuppie Scum View Post
      But it is with a conventional back windshield or metal roof too, isn't it?
      The glass roof is ONE PIECE. It's twice the area of a normal back window so it's twice as likely to be hit by a random object. Glass is less forgiving than metal ... you can get a dent in the roof and keep driving, the car remains weathertight; if that same hit had broken the window (remember, twice as likely because it's twice as big) you have no choice but to replace it. And given the size of that piece of glass, by all rights it is going to be a lot more expensive than a normal rear window.

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      05-21-2017 09:12 AM #1268
      Quote Originally Posted by GoFaster View Post
      The glass roof is ONE PIECE. It's twice the area of a normal back window so it's twice as likely to be hit by a random object. Glass is less forgiving than metal ... you can get a dent in the roof and keep driving, the car remains weathertight; if that same hit had broken the window (remember, twice as likely because it's twice as big) you have no choice but to replace it. And given the size of that piece of glass, by all rights it is going to be a lot more expensive than a normal rear window.
      Haven't you heard, Musk just invented unbreakable glass.

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      05-21-2017 09:14 AM #1269
      Quote Originally Posted by GoFaster View Post
      The glass roof is ONE PIECE. It's twice the area of a normal back window so it's twice as likely to be hit by a random object. Glass is less forgiving than metal ... you can get a dent in the roof and keep driving, the car remains weathertight; if that same hit had broken the window (remember, twice as likely because it's twice as big) you have no choice but to replace it. And given the size of that piece of glass, by all rights it is going to be a lot more expensive than a normal rear window.
      I would also think that glass is going to be significantly heavier than the sheet metal they use for the roof. Not very eco.

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      05-21-2017 10:45 AM #1270
      Seems odd there's still speculation about how likely the glass roof is to break or overheat the car. The Model S has come with an all-glass roof for 6+ months (though in 2 sheets) - it's not an unknown variable.

      The only difference (and deal-killing downside for many) is that the Model 3 isn't a hatchback.

      Gentlemen, you had my curiosity. But now you have my attention.

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      05-21-2017 10:51 AM #1271
      I wouldn't sweat the all glass roof. Just add a vinyl top and it's instantly padded and keeps the interior cooler.
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      05-21-2017 11:15 AM #1272
      I wonder if there will be some kind of roof rail option?


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    24. Senior Member AZGolf's Avatar
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      05-21-2017 12:27 PM #1273
      Quote Originally Posted by GoFaster View Post
      The glass roof is ONE PIECE. It's twice the area of a normal back window so it's twice as likely to be hit by a random object. Glass is less forgiving than metal ... you can get a dent in the roof and keep driving, the car remains weathertight; if that same hit had broken the window (remember, twice as likely because it's twice as big) you have no choice but to replace it. And given the size of that piece of glass, by all rights it is going to be a lot more expensive than a normal rear window.
      All your complaints apply the same as a panoramic sunroof, which is something that's been offered by lots of automakers for lots of years. Other than careless klutzes, rarely does anyone break their sunroof. Movable sunroofs are plenty expensive to replace too because you have to take all kinds of stuff apart and have tracks/rails, motors, and everything else along with the cleanup work of getting glass out from inside the roof. Honestly - while glass is not indestructible, the cost & risk category isn't going to be appreciably different from a sunroof.

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      05-21-2017 03:26 PM #1274
      Quote Originally Posted by AZGolf View Post
      All your complaints apply the same as a panoramic sunroof, which is something that's been offered by lots of automakers for lots of years. Other than careless klutzes, rarely does anyone break their sunroof. Movable sunroofs are plenty expensive to replace too because you have to take all kinds of stuff apart and have tracks/rails, motors, and everything else along with the cleanup work of getting glass out from inside the roof. Honestly - while glass is not indestructible, the cost & risk category isn't going to be appreciably different from a sunroof.
      Maybe Chevy will take a cue and do a new commercial with the Model 3 and Bolt, dropping a toolbox onto each one, show people what happens.
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      05-22-2017 09:37 AM #1275
      Quote Originally Posted by chois View Post
      OK. Here is a published counterpoint.
      http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/05/1...ce-conditions/
      That's NOT a counterpoint. That's spin for people who aren't aware of how the auto industry works today after eons of evolution. That's them admitting that they most likely ignored or stretched LESSONS LEARNED with respect to safety and that is what I find astonishing given how innovative Tesla have been regarding some of the things they do.

      The fact is that Tesla have quite a few industry veterans working there in technical and leadership roles... especially MFG. I'm quite certain these people:
      a) Already knew how tough the endeavor would be and warned against the hurdles in order to try to work around it, but given that it happened anyways all that tells me is that the warnings were ignored.
      b) Ergonomics is nothing new and that they actually created it in recent years seems odd since designing MFG process (for as long as I've worked in auto MFG) in mature industries like autos includes the ergonomist's input... not after the fact, which is a costlier affair.
      c) Simulations is nothing new either, because that's been used for the last decade plus.

      Look, I get that Elon can do no wrong, but the proof is that his rush to market is a reflection of extremely risky pushes that can harm the launch of a most important product and worse... harm workers that want the best for their company.

      A few of us here noted years ago during Tesla's early days that the most challenging phase would be trying to launch their first mainstream product. I hope they get through it, but they can only rely on so much consumer faith/loyalty. Their success hinges a lot of their image and burning people out unnecessarily and risking lives won't help that. And why? To catch up with the Bolt? Really? Tesla already have 300k+ orders. Respect that interest based on faith of buyers and strategize on going FAST to market... not RUSHING to market (i.e. And tripping along the way.). These people have enough trust to drop a good downpayment on a start-up company. Return the favor by walking the talk and doing things right the first time. Don't take your sweet time, but don't stumble to market either in a risky rush.

      Most all factory workers care about doing a good job and will naturally push themselves to do so for the company... often times at the risk of their own health. Leadership needs to respect that and nurture that good will... not milk it. I'm glad they've recognized the problem, because safety should be an overriding priority in any MFG environment in our society.

      “The alternative is to stop improving and to instead do what the rest of the industry, including the UAW, has always done. But being industry average would make our safety 32% worse. We care too much about our team to go backwards.”
      That statement is so much PR BS spin it ain't funny.

      Industry average is ALL plants from all vehicle OEMs to all levels of tiered suppliers... and generally the lower the tier the higher the safety risks since these smaller facilities in the boonies have far less pressure to do right by their employees. And if you think UAW plants are somehow less safe then somebody needs to stop drinking the Koolaid. The only average they're better than is not the established car maker average, but the total US MFG average, which includes non auto MFG, too.

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