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    1. Geriatric Member ValveCoverGasket's Avatar
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      08-31-2016 10:53 AM #76
      nice work!


      ill throw my vote in for the ea$twood brake flare tool.
      cry once when youre paying for it, and never worry about struggling with brake fittings again... mines gotten more use than i expected when i first bought it. its really a lot less stressful than fighting with those little clamp/screw tools

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    3. Member AlBeezy36's Avatar
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      08-31-2016 10:59 AM #77
      Quote Originally Posted by ValveCoverGasket View Post
      nice work!


      ill throw my vote in for the ea$twood brake flare tool.
      cry once when youre paying for it, and never worry about struggling with brake fittings again... mines gotten more use than i expected when i first bought it. its really a lot less stressful than fighting with those little clamp/screw tools
      I think the next time I get into a car's brakes I'll be buying one. Have you tried it with stainless line? That OEM one I have works perfect for stuff softer than stainless, but even with heat the OEM one struggled and I even damaged the dies a little causing me to have to go get another one last weekend. Stuff is just wicked tough to double flare.

      Regarding the cost. I probably have over a $100 into various tools and segments of line. Who knows how much time spent driving here, there, screaming, cursing, crying. Hindsight again is a bitch. Just buy the right tool the first time. Life is rough

      RR is looking cool. Curious what happens with that wheel rivet and how you plan on fixing it.
      - Alex

    4. Geriatric Member ValveCoverGasket's Avatar
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      08-31-2016 11:24 AM #78
      Quote Originally Posted by AlBeezy36 View Post
      I think the next time I get into a car's brakes I'll be buying one. Have you tried it with stainless line? That OEM one I have works perfect for stuff softer than stainless, but even with heat the OEM one struggled and I even damaged the dies a little causing me to have to go get another one last weekend. Stuff is just wicked tough to double flare.

      Regarding the cost. I probably have over a $100 into various tools and segments of line. Who knows how much time spent driving here, there, screaming, cursing, crying. Hindsight again is a bitch. Just buy the right tool the first time. Life is rough
      i havent used it on any stainless, but it gets good marks from others online for that.
      i did use it on some pretty large line when i was building the AN fuel lines on my MG, no problems at all. and that line was thick enough to be a bear to bend by hand. but i cant imagine itd be an issue on harder materials since you have so much more leverage and its really stable/the line doesnt slip in the die at all


      Quote Originally Posted by AlBeezy36 View Post
      RR is looking cool. Curious what happens with that wheel rivet and how you plan on fixing it.
      thanks!
      tire shop guy said hes seen people weld those in place from the back, but i need to do some more research.

    5. Member AlBeezy36's Avatar
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      02-28-2017 01:41 PM #79
      I'll have an update coming shortly. In the meantime I have a question for the experts.

      Backstory:

      The car takes ages to fire after sitting. I've made the assumption that the fuel bowls are emptying either via evaporation or slight leaking or a combination of both. In any case, after the car has sat for a week or longer it can take quite a bit of cranking to get the mechanical fuel pump to refill the lines and the carb. I'd like to put a stop to that.

      To remedy this, I'd like to plumb in an electric fuel pump for priming purposes, but I'd like the system to control itself. I want it to prime the system, then shut itself off. The idea is to turn the key to the 'on' position, then sit there while it hums, then shuts off. I do not want a manual switch to control the pump. I could then turn the key to start and have it start/run with the mechanical pump doing the rest.

      Question:

      How would I do this?

      I was thinking that I could use an inline 'flow-thru' low pressure fuel pump with an oil pressure switch. The flow-thru pump would allow fuel to be pulled through it via the mechanical pump while the electric pump stands-by. Using a normally closed oil pressure switch, I could have switched power running to a relay which would turn the pump on with key in on position. My demon carb wants 6.5-7psi, so if I pick up an oil pressure switch which opens at say 5psi, I would think it should be pretty safe. The pump would pump, but once a line pressure of 5psi is developed, the oil pressure switch would open and the relay/pump would shut off. If fuel pressure ever dropped below the range specified by the oil pressure switch, the pump would then be turned back on, only to turn itself back off once line pressure was re-established. I figure this could be a pretty passive system and may come in handy when the pedal gets heavy up a hill or we get an occasional hot day. When the car is hot or running around on errands there will be a fuel pressure of >5psi and the electric pump will sit dormant.

      Any thoughts from experts or wannabe experts? Have I missed the mark with the fuel system draining itself? Curious if you guys have better or different ideas.

      Thank you
      - Alex

    6. Member Crispyfritter's Avatar
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      02-28-2017 01:50 PM #80
      That actually seems overly complicated to me. I'd set it up like a glow plug setup for diesels. Have it on a timed relay that gives you what you think will be the appropriate amount of time after key-on and then have it cut off.

      Chris
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    7. Member AlBeezy36's Avatar
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      02-28-2017 01:59 PM #81
      Quote Originally Posted by Crispyfritter View Post
      That actually seems overly complicated to me. I'd set it up like a glow plug setup for diesels. Have it on a timed relay that gives you what you think will be the appropriate amount of time after key-on and then have it cut off.

      Chris
      That was actually my first approach. The only issue I have with that is the time controlled relay (timed-on) look like a mini computer board. I see a bunch of time delay relays which turn on after 5 or 10 seconds but it gets more complicated when you want to control how long it's on. Am I missing something here? This will be installed under the car near the gas tank, so environment is also a concern. Lastly, the goal is to achieve X pressure in the line, not run the pump for X seconds. That's mainly what got me thinking about the oil pressure switch. Something like this teed into the line where the fuel pump will mount:

      - Alex

    8. Member barry2952's Avatar
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      02-28-2017 02:12 PM #82
      I think you're making this overly complicated. It sounds like you have fuel getting past the check valve in the fuel pump if it drains back. Short of rebuilding, there are two approaches. First is to simply install a check valve in the flexible line leading to the tank. That's the least expensive route. You just need to know the fuel line size. The second approach would be to install a low-pressure in-line pump with a filter. If your regular fuel pump is working, but just not holding the gas in the line there's absolutely no reason for the electric pump to be on at all while the engine is running. I simply use a momentary-contact single-pole push-button 12-volt rated switch. That way your car never has the pump on, except for starting. All of my cars, and the cars that I build for others, are set up that way. Some have had me use toggles, but I prefer pushbuttons. Old-time starter buttons work great and are available from most restoration suppliers.

    9. Senior Member Air and water do mix's Avatar
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      02-28-2017 02:17 PM #83
      I'll let the experts in relays and whatnot figure out the best way to time/sense the electric pump, but I question the mechanical fuel pump if it's that hard after a week. It sounds like you're either leaking back through the pump and the fuel in the pump/carb is going back to the gas tank or you're leaking through the diaphragm and the gas is getting into the oil.

      Does this fuel pump come apart or is it crimped together? I fully rebuilt mine when it started giving trouble (parts are available to rebuild them) and it performs much better, though I still question the check valve in mine, and now yours. If you can't rebuild or at least dismantle and inspect it perhaps a simple check valve run in-line would cure your ills? It might be worth a shot.

      If we were talking about a month I wouldn't sweat it, but a week seems too short. Also, is there a hint of gasoline smell in the oil? You might not smell it on the dipstick, but check it the next time you change oil.
      Quote Originally Posted by Boyz in da Park
      Proletariat, Bourgeoise - Everybody smellin' my potpourri...

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      02-28-2017 02:20 PM #84
      I'd do the inline check valve as close to the carb as possible as Barry mentioned.

      Also please let us know if it works as I have the same issue with my mechanical pumped Bronco.

    11. Member barry2952's Avatar
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      02-28-2017 02:22 PM #85
      Quote Originally Posted by Sonderwunsch View Post
      Id do the inline check valve as close to the carb as possible as Barry mentioned.

      Also please let us know if it works as I have the same issue with my mechanical pumped Bronco.
      Just curious, why not at the tank to keep the lines full?

    12. Member barry2952's Avatar
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      02-28-2017 02:38 PM #86
      Quote Originally Posted by Air and water do mix View Post
      If we were talking about a month I wouldn't sweat it, but a week seems too short. Also, is there a hint of gasoline smell in the oil? You might not smell it on the dipstick, but check it the next time you change oil.
      I hadn't thought of that, but that much fuel would end up showing on the dipstick over time.

      Many people think they fuel in the bowl evaporates, but that takes an incredibly long time. Typically, what happens on some carbs is that the float keeps the needle-valve closed. The seal is not perfect, so if enough fuel is lost in the bowl the float drops as if it's asking for fuel so the bowl gets emptied down to the level of the needle valve seat. The reason you have trouble starting the car is more that you have no fuel to give it the initial push of fuel needed to start the car. If there's no gas in the bowl you'll just run your battery down.

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      02-28-2017 02:40 PM #87
      Quote Originally Posted by barry2952 View Post
      Just curious, why not at the tank to keep the lines full?
      That actually makes much more sense. I was thinking the carb was the thing you are trying to keep full so it needs to be up there but if it works at the tank should be better.

      Mine has dual tanks on a short chassis so I don't think it matters too much in my case.

    14. Member AlBeezy36's Avatar
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      02-28-2017 03:27 PM #88
      Good advice everyone. Thank you!

      I do get a small bit of gas smell in the oil, A&W. Not sure what a normal/discrepant amount is though, so I think I've always chalked it up to 'this is what carbed cars do'.

      Is a slight gas smell in your oil normal? It's certainly not overwhelming.

      Sounds like my to-do list should be:

      1) Rebuild pump (I believe it's 15 years old with minimal usage)
      2) Re-diagnose, and install check valve as needed
      3) Install inline pump to help prime after above is done and problem persists.
      - Alex

    15. Member barry2952's Avatar
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      02-28-2017 03:30 PM #89
      Quote Originally Posted by AlBeezy36 View Post
      Good advice everyone. Thank you!

      I do get a small bit of gas smell in the oil, A&W. Not sure what a normal/discrepant amount is though, so I think I've always chalked it up to 'this is what carbed cars do'.

      Is a slight gas smell in your oil normal? It's certainly not overwhelming.

      Sounds like my to-do list should be:

      1) Rebuild pump (I believe it's 15 years old with minimal usage)
      2) Re-diagnose, and install check valve as needed
      3) Install inline pump to help prime after above is done and problem persists.
      Yes, unburned fuel can get past the rings. If the level of oil isn't high there's nothing to worry about.

    16. Geriatric Member ValveCoverGasket's Avatar
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      02-28-2017 03:36 PM #90
      Quote Originally Posted by barry2952 View Post
      Many people think they fuel in the bowl evaporates, but that takes an incredibly long time. Typically, what happens on some carbs is that the float keeps the needle-valve closed. The seal is not perfect, so if enough fuel is lost in the bowl the float drops as if it's asking for fuel so the bowl gets emptied down to the level of the needle valve seat. The reason you have trouble starting the car is more that you have no fuel to give it the initial push of fuel needed to start the car. If there's no gas in the bowl you'll just run your battery down.
      is this primarily only true for mechanical pumps, since theyre engine driven?
      i have a similar "takes a while to fire up" issue with the SUs on the rolls after it sits for a month or two. i always assumed it was due to the fuel evaporating out of the bowls and taking forever to fill, but i can hear the pump whacking away...

    17. Member barry2952's Avatar
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      02-28-2017 04:04 PM #91
      Quote Originally Posted by ValveCoverGasket View Post
      is this primarily only true for mechanical pumps, since theyre engine driven?
      i have a similar "takes a while to fire up" issue with the SUs on the rolls after it sits for a month or two. i always assumed it was due to the fuel evaporating out of the bowls and taking forever to fill, but i can hear the pump whacking away...
      It's true of an electric pump, too as they have check valves that fail. If you think about it there is very little pressure needed to keep the needle valve closed. If the fuel line is empty due to a failed check valve your carbs are pretty dry.

      Dave rebuilt the fuel/vacuum pump on the Mark II. He found that the check valves weren't seated properly due to gaskets that didn't stop the pitted seats from letting fuel past. The check valves were working fine. The check valves needed to be peened into place to make them tight, and they weren't.

    18. Geriatric Member ValveCoverGasket's Avatar
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      02-28-2017 04:18 PM #92
      interesting!

      Carbs 101 w/ Barry

    19. Member barry2952's Avatar
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      02-28-2017 04:30 PM #93
      Quote Originally Posted by ValveCoverGasket View Post
      interesting!

      Carbs 101 w/ Barry
      Fuel injection and radial tires were new when I was young.

    20. Senior Member Air and water do mix's Avatar
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      02-28-2017 04:40 PM #94
      Quote Originally Posted by barry2952 View Post
      Yes, unburned fuel can get past the rings. If the level of oil isn't high there's nothing to worry about.
      When it's really bad the oil is not only over what it should be, it's thin like gas. The worst I've seen was on one of my cars. I had a cheap "fuel pressure regulator" (that's in quotes because it was the chrome 'push and turn' type which is more of a restrictor than a regulator) and it failed, filling the crankcase full of gas. It was so bad that it hydraulically locked upon attempted startup. I had to pull the plug and crank it over to shoot the gas out. I misdiagnosed it (as a needle and seat) and it happened a second time. It did enough damage to the bottom end that it needed a rebuild shortly thereafter. Then I figured out what the problem was.

      I'm a little wary of gas in the oil after that, but as Barry said, a little is nothing to worry about. - Unless you're burning or leaking some oil and adding some gas to the crankcase (keeping it "full") then it should be obvious. Yes, I've seen it happen, but only once!
      Quote Originally Posted by Boyz in da Park
      Proletariat, Bourgeoise - Everybody smellin' my potpourri...

    21. Senior Member dubdaze68's Avatar
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      02-28-2017 04:41 PM #95
      I'm also finding that ethanol blend gas is hell on rubber lines, so if there is a diaphragm in the pump, maybe it has taken it's toll.
      DCIVW
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    22. Member barry2952's Avatar
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      02-28-2017 04:44 PM #96
      Quote Originally Posted by dubdaze68 View Post
      I'm also finding that ethanol blend gas is hell on rubber lines, so if there is a diaphragm in the pump, maybe it has taken it's toll.
      I have 12 vehicles including service trucks and I've never experienced a problem. If you use the gas up on a regular basis the water given up is burned off. Dave doesn't like it, but he uses it in his own truck.

    23. Senior Member dubdaze68's Avatar
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      02-28-2017 04:48 PM #97
      Quote Originally Posted by AlBeezy36 View Post

      1) Rebuild pump (I believe it's 15 years old with minimal usage)
      Which is why I noted this, Barry.
      DCIVW
      CE.

    24. Member AlBeezy36's Avatar
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      03-01-2017 11:37 AM #98
      Quote Originally Posted by AlBeezy36 View Post

      Sounds like my to-do list should be:

      1) Rebuild pump (I believe it's 15 years old with minimal usage)
      2) Re-diagnose, and install check valve as needed
      3) Install inline pump to help prime after above is done and problem persists.
      After thinking about this more, I'm going to try the check valve first. I figure this should be a good indication as to whether the pump really needs rebuilding or not. I'll put the check valve just after the tank and it should keep the line filled, even after sitting.

      I took the car out for a drive yesterday and realized a couple more things:

      1) Car is not charging. With fan on, voltmeter is hovering at 12v, so I have some digging to do.
      2) I make 12.5Hg of vacuum. I contacted CPP after seeing QuadCammers 7" booster. CPP told me I need 15Hg minimum when warm and at idle. Curious if I'm stuck going hydroboost or if a vacuum canister will get me the extra 2.5Hg.
      3) Vacuum line from transmission is not the right size. There is a slight vacuum leak with the hose connected, which is likely the cause of my laggy shifter. My 12.5Hg was measured from same port without leaky line attached, so vacuum won't improve with line fixed.

      Added all of this to the to-do list
      - Alex

    25. Member barry2952's Avatar
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      03-01-2017 12:34 PM #99
      Quote Originally Posted by AlBeezy36 View Post
      After thinking about this more, I'm going to try the check valve first. I figure this should be a good indication as to whether the pump really needs rebuilding or not. I'll put the check valve just after the tank and it should keep the line filled, even after sitting.

      I took the car out for a drive yesterday and realized a couple more things:

      1) Car is not charging. With fan on, voltmeter is hovering at 12v, so I have some digging to do.
      2) I make 12.5Hg of vacuum. I contacted CPP after seeing QuadCammers 7" booster. CPP told me I need 15Hg minimum when warm and at idle. Curious if I'm stuck going hydroboost or if a vacuum canister will get me the extra 2.5Hg.
      3) Vacuum line from transmission is not the right size. There is a slight vacuum leak with the hose connected, which is likely the cause of my laggy shifter. My 12.5Hg was measured from same port without leaky line attached, so vacuum won't improve with line fixed.

      Added all of this to the to-do list
      A healthy engine runs at 19-20hg. It could be that your timing is too far retarded. I wouldn't use the timing marks on the vibration damper as they can change over time. The very best way to tune an engine is with a vacuum gauge. You quite simply try to attain the lowest rpm with the highest vacuum. This is done through the idle jets, idle adjustment screw and rotating the distributor for highest vacuum. I can post Pony's instructions if you's like. I'll never use a timing light again.

      You can be experiencing vacuum loss at a number of places, but most come where the intake meets the block and where the carb meets the intake. Spray carb cleaner around the seals and see if there's an rpm change. Also, many cars use a choke tube that passes through the intake. If it's totted you'll have a vacuum leak that's hard to find, but look there as it's common. If you have carbon in your choke housing you have a breach.

    26. Member Crispyfritter's Avatar
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      03-01-2017 12:40 PM #100
      Quote Originally Posted by barry2952 View Post
      A healthy engine runs at 19-20hg. It could be that your timing is too far retarded. I wouldn't use the timing marks on the vibration damper as they can change over time. The very best way to tune an engine is with a vacuum gauge. You quite simply try to attain the lowest rpm with the highest vacuum. This is done through the idle jets, idle adjustment screw and rotating the distributor for highest vacuum. I can post Pony's instructions if you's like. I'll never use a timing light again.
      I'd love this info.
      | 2017 Korean Appliance SE | 2008 Suburban LTZ | 2003 Dodge Ram | 2002 BMW 530i con mañuel | 1974 SuperBeetle x 2 | 1979 Camaro | 1975 Scout |
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