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    1. Junior Member
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      2011 VW Jetta
      02-12-2012 08:36 PM #1
      I currently own a 2011 Jetta SE 2.5. This past summer I brought it into 2-different dealerships complaing about a shudder in the transmission that happens between 20 - 35mph. It had about 5,500 miles on it at the time. The shudder would happen about a couple times while driving to and from work each day. Well both dealers inspected the vehicle and of course could not replicate the problem. The dealer who I purchased the car from did check the tranny fluid and said it was fine. Since the problem couldn't be replicated by the dealers I decided to be patient and to re-evaluate the issue again at the 10,000 check up. The weather here in Michigan has been quite cold. The shudder has now tappered down to about twice a week instead of daily. The transmission is now shifting hard (clunk) from 1st to 2nd gear for about 5-10 minutes and then it smoothes out. Is this common nature of the 6-speed auto tranny during cold weather?? The car now has just under 9,000 miles on it. Once the car is warmed up the the car will shift rough from 2nd to 3rd gear at moderate throttle, while excellerating from a stop. To see how often this happens, I tested the car in the parking lot, and the rough 2nd-3rd shifting happend about 6 out of 10 times while excellerating from a stop. So, not all the time. It has been doing this for the past 2-months. The car just doesn't shift smooth consistantly. Now while driving I anticipate/think about the rough 2nd-3rd shift before it even happens, which is wearing on me to say the least. Besides the tranny, could there be anything wrong with the throttle calibration? I plan on bringing my car in next month for the 10M mile check up. I love the way the car drives, expecially coming from a 2010 Honda Civic. I can deal with all the hard plastic interior parts VW loyalist have complained about, but a poor shifting transmission is something I cannot accept. I would appreciate any feed back on what the problem might be and any information I could pass on to the VW tech to help better indentify the problem.

    2. Member
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      2008 VW Jetta 2.5
      02-13-2012 07:52 AM #2
      Well, if you have seen any of my previous posts regarding this transmission and the dealership techs you will find that I have nothing positve for the the latter. I think that most VW techs, as well as most other auto makers, are inept at the diagnostics, especially transmissions. This isn't completely their fault, it is the auto makers. They send out learning modules for them to self-study ("factory training", I guess) and in here it explains, in the most simplistic terms possible, how the transmission works and the compenents involved in each operation, again, in extremely basic terms. In addition, these manuals have "diagnotic" flow charts to help the tech diagnose problems. If the problem isn't listed or if all of the "resolutions" don't actually resolve the problem, they call a tech line who will either give them more info or give them permission to replace this or that under warranty if appropriate. Now most of my latter statement is from an outsiders view looking in so I may have included some unintended exaggeration but that is the gist of it. Ahhh, deep breaths!
      Now since your car is so new I would be hesitant to jump to VB issues, which this transmission is notorious for. However, I am assuming that you have the 09G 6-speed and not the DSG 6-speed. If you have "DSG" on the shifter than it has this, otherwise it is the 09G. Both, however, have VB problems. Unfortunately, your symptoms match the common complaints related to a worn VB/solenoids. Again, I don't think that this is the case due to the extremely low miles. At this point I would do two things as soon as possible. Your car is obviously still under warranty and I believe the even for the newest models the drivetrain warranty was extended to 100k due to the VB being so problematic. You need to first have the dealer reset the adaptive shift program and test drive it further to see if this works out your complaints. Make sure they do this, you should see a difference in the shifts when you get it back. They will likely be better, but could be worse. This is fine as the TCM takes a bit of time to fine tune the shifts. Once, it "settles" on a shift pattern it will take significantly longer to adapt, which is hopefully what you are experincing currently. If the VB is bad, than it is likely due to poor machining tolerance of either the VB bores, spool valves, and/or linear solenoids because the cyclic frequency (the number of times a valve moves) of any or all of the valves has not been high enough to result in bore wear. The reason these VB's are so problematic is likely due to the mismatch in materials used. The valve body case (large pieces that hold all of the valves) is made from virgin aluminum alloy, whereas the valves are either steel, in the case of the accumulators, or hard-coat anodized (remainder of the spool valves). This combination assures that the VB body wears, while the valves may become burnished/polished at worst. Unfortunately, most companies use a similar combination in their VB's but they don't see the number of VB problems that Aisin Warner (the maker of these transmissions and many others in various cars including domestic (US)). I speculate that it is dues to poor machining, poor selection in aluminum alloy type, and possibly poor valve design.
      Anyway, the next thing to be persistent on if the adaptive reset doesn't fix the problem, is to get the VB or transmission replaced under warranty. This is much trickier than it looks as mentioned in my beginning paragraph. You have to be the "squeaky wheel" and be as persistent as Hell and make sure that you get them to experience the problem. Go on the test drives with them or have them sit in the passenger sit while you take their "lead tech" with you. What you are complaining about IS NOT normal transmission operation nor it is due to transmission fluid at any capacity so don't let them tell you need a transmission service or that you are experiencing normal operations as this is absolute bull****. Obviously, if they are going to do something uder warranty and no cost to you than let them change fluid or whatever elese they want to try, as it is free, but don't pay for anything. I apologize for being long-winded; I just like giving one-lined, generic answers. Good luck and let me know if you need anything else!

      Brad

      Transtech Engineering

    3. Member CoolAirVw's Avatar
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      02-13-2012 10:54 AM #3
      Your dealer will need to duplicate the issue to help you.

      If it happens worse cold then leave it with them outside overnight, then drive up there and take there tech or service advisor for a ride and show them the problem.
      Auto trans fluid change or flush will not make a trans fail. Stop spreading the wives tale/urban myth.
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    4. Junior Member
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      2011 VW Jetta
      02-13-2012 01:06 PM #4
      Thanks Brad for all he history and feedback on the transmission. Also, the transmission is the normal 6sp automatic, not the DSG. I will mention the resetting of the adaptive shift program to the sevice dept and tech at my 10M check up. I currently have 3 dealer service records of the shudder complaint, and it sounds like I will need to be persistant in resolving this matter. Concerning the VB issue you explained, it's a shame, since I'm sure VW is aware of the problem, but figures a car at this price point is well good enough for the ordinary buyer. So much for German Engineering. Hopefully the VB is not the issue, but when I asked the magic 8 ball, it said "Signs point to Yes!" Just trying to find some humor in this. I suppose if persistance doesn't work with the dealer I could always take a loss and sell the car, which I would not like to do. Thanks again for all your advice! Rod

    5. Junior Member
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      2011 VW Jetta
      02-13-2012 01:24 PM #5
      Quote Originally Posted by CoolAirVw View Post
      Your dealer will need to duplicate the issue to help you.

      If it happens worse cold then leave it with them outside overnight, then drive up there and take there tech or service advisor for a ride and show them the problem.
      Your absolutely right about the dealer needing to duplicate this issue. Also, thanks for the advice about leaving the car overnight, I will be sure to do that. Hopefully they will have hired another service tech since this past summer, as they only had one at the time. If I would have known that I would probably not have purchased from that dealership. I guess I am cursed with cars with transmission issues. I had a 2003 Honda Accord V6 and the tranny went out at 36,500 miles and needed to be replaced. Also, had a 2003 Nissan Murano with 40,000 miles on it with the CVT tranny and that went bad as well, and had to be replaced. Luckily they were both covered under warranty. Just wondering if there is a manufacture that doesn't have transmission probelms?

    6. Member
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      02-14-2012 12:15 AM #6
      Quote Originally Posted by 43jetta View Post
      Hopefully they will have hired another service tech since this past summer, as they only had one at the time. If I would have known that I would probably not have purchased from that dealership.
      Don't know how many dealers are in your area, but you *any* dealer can perform warranty work. Records will follow the VIN, not the dealer. Find one you are happy, or at least happier, with. [edit, I see you already have been to two dealers ...]

      But Brad's comments are right about VW and AT service. I believe it is a practical issue: they have to keep the work flowing through their shop to be profitable. It takes specialized knowledge and skill to troubleshoot and fix AT problems, and there is a high probablity of a call-back. When most parts that they replace are under warranty, it is easier for the dealer to just say 'time for a new transmission', or sometimes valve body if the home office allows it. The problem is that VW has no mechanism in place to change philosphy to 'take a deeper look and try to fix it' when the warranty runs out and the customer must pay for the new transmission or valve body.

      I don't think that VW is any different than other marques in that respect though.

      PS - Adaptive reset won't fix your problem, IMHO. Yours is an intermittent problem, caused by a real issue. Adaptive reset just looks at your driving style and system pressures and adjusts accordingly. It does not handle 'outliers' any better with a reset.

    7. Member
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      2008 VW Jetta 2.5
      02-14-2012 07:49 AM #7
      Charlie_M makes a good, more grounded point than I did regarding the situation at VW dealerships and, yes, all automakers are the same. I do understand their approach from a business standpoint and it makes a lot of sense. However, it hurts customer confidence which should be one of their top priorities. Dealerships do realize that this approach is hurting their service departments because automakers are trying more and more to monopolize the repair on their vehicles by incorporating "safeguards" that force the owner to bring the car to the dealer for repair as no other shop is allowed such computer access, etc.
      Also, the adpative reset may not fix the problem, but I like to try the simplest solutions first as I have been burned before overthinking problems and jumping to a conclusion. Unfortunately, all automakers have transmission issues and some more than others. Chrysler vehicles (Jeep, Dodge, and Chrysler) are notorious for weak, problematic transmissions, though they are incorporating Mercedes-Benz units in their Jeeps, though these come with their own headaches. ZF transmissions, as a whole, a very good, but they are very expensive to repair. Nissan Muranos have very problematic transmissions, more because they have very few, if any available parts and are basicallt throw-away units for all intents and purposes. Usually the only solution is a unit from the dealer as aftermarket rebuilds are hard to find. This applies to almost all CVT units. Good luck with what ever you decide.

      Brad

    8. Junior Member
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      2011 VW Jetta
      02-14-2012 08:08 AM #8
      Thanks Brad & Charlie_M for all of your feedback! I have contacted the dealer and made an appointment for this Thursday. I plan on dropping the car off the night before, so that the car is cold the following morning. The Service advisor said he would talk to the tech before hand to trouble shoot the issue more. I received an email appoinment confirmation and when I openned it last night, it listed in comments, perform "Open Recall 24W4", along with my rough shifting and shudder comments to them. I researched on the forum real quick this morning, but all could come across about it was it applied to cold start issues? Well, I will probably find out more on this when I take the car in. I will be sure to post my results on Friday.

    9. Junior Member
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      02-14-2012 11:55 AM #9
      Quote Originally Posted by bjohns86 View Post
      Charlie_M makes a good, more grounded point than I did regarding the situation at VW dealerships and, yes, all automakers are the same. I do understand their approach from a business standpoint and it makes a lot of sense. However, it hurts customer confidence which should be one of their top priorities. Dealerships do realize that this approach is hurting their service departments because automakers are trying more and more to monopolize the repair on their vehicles by incorporating "safeguards" that force the owner to bring the car to the dealer for repair as no other shop is allowed such computer access, etc.
      Also, the adpative reset may not fix the problem, but I like to try the simplest solutions first as I have been burned before overthinking problems and jumping to a conclusion. Unfortunately, all automakers have transmission issues and some more than others. Chrysler vehicles (Jeep, Dodge, and Chrysler) are notorious for weak, problematic transmissions, though they are incorporating Mercedes-Benz units in their Jeeps, though these come with their own headaches. ZF transmissions, as a whole, a very good, but they are very expensive to repair. Nissan Muranos have very problematic transmissions, more because they have very few, if any available parts and are basicallt throw-away units for all intents and purposes. Usually the only solution is a unit from the dealer as aftermarket rebuilds are hard to find. This applies to almost all CVT units. Good luck with what ever you decide.

      Brad
      Just curious, what automakers use the ZF transmissions you referred to? Also, any idea what transmissions Honda (Accord & Civic) & Toyota use (Camry & Corolla)?

    10. Member
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      02-14-2012 01:10 PM #10
      Quote Originally Posted by 43jetta View Post
      Just curious, what automakers use the ZF transmissions you referred to? Also, any idea what transmissions Honda (Accord & Civic) & Toyota use (Camry & Corolla)?
      Audi, BMW, VW (high end like phaeton), Jaguar, Land Rover, even Hyundai (!?). (From the ZF fluid <==> OEM fluid interchange pamphlet at thectsc.com) There is some variability across brands too depending on car model. VW for example uses Jatco (tiptronic 09A), Aisin (sp?) and ZF. Audi uses a lot of ZF, I think all of their AT Quattros.

    11. Member
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      02-14-2012 01:32 PM #11
      Quote Originally Posted by 43jetta View Post
      I received an email appoinment confirmation and when I openned it last night, it listed in comments, perform "Open Recall 24W4", along with my rough shifting and shudder comments to them. I researched on the forum real quick this morning, but all could come across about it was it applied to cold start issues? Well, I will probably find out more on this when I take the car in. I will be sure to post my results on Friday.
      Seems that 24W4 calls for a re-flash of the ECU. One user had similar complaints to yours, and the reflash fixed it; but now he thinks the shifts are too 'mushy'. He was also initially confused thinking he had a DSG: http://www.golfmk6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30654

      People tend to think ECU does only the engine, but that's not entirely true. With an AT, the ECU works with the TCM (transmission control module) to reduce torque briefly during a shift, for example.

      Try to find out if the reprogram just the ECU, or the ECU / TCM pair. 24W4 is not a 'recall', so you won't get a letter, but rather is a 'campaign' which means 'do the job for free next time that VIN shows up at a VW dealer'. Oh, I doubt you do, if you have a 'tuned' ECU, it will be erased by the dealer during the reflash. Not many 2.5L motors are chipped, unlike the 1.8T population.
      Last edited by Charlie_M; 02-14-2012 at 01:35 PM.

    12. Junior Member
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      02-14-2012 09:03 PM #12
      Charlie_M, thanks for the info on the ZF transmissions. I will be sure to ask the question about the reprogram of the ECU/TCM as well.

    13. Junior Member
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      2011 VW Jetta
      02-15-2012 09:57 PM #13
      Well, I dropped off my vehicle at the dealer this eve. They provided me with a 2011 Jetta S as a loaner. This is the 2.0/4-cylinder model, with a 6sp Automatic. I noticed right away the difference in the way this car's automatic shifts, it was seemless. I couldn't even feel the gear change from 1st-2nd and 2nd-3rd as compared to my vehicle. It felt like a different transmission compared to mine. Now I realize this is a 4 cylinder and not the 5-cylinder I have. Would the transmission react differently (shift quality smoothness) in the 4 cyl vs the 5 cylinder?
      Last edited by 43jetta; 02-15-2012 at 10:02 PM.

    14. Member
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      02-16-2012 05:56 AM #14
      No, shifts will feel the same. However, the shift points may be a little different but I doubt it. Also, if it is the DSG than it will feel a bit different.

      Brad

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      02-16-2012 06:30 AM #15
      Quote Originally Posted by bjohns86 View Post
      No, shifts will feel the same. However, the shift points may be a little different but I doubt it. Also, if it is the DSG than it will feel a bit different.

      Brad
      Good to know, just in case the service advisor or tech use the engine size as the reason. Oh, and the loaner car just had the regular 6sp Auto, not the DSG.

    16. Junior Member
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      02-16-2012 10:06 PM #16
      I got to the dealership at 9am today, because thats when the tech started work. We then went out for a test drive. Of course, the 1st - 2nd shift didn't seem as harsh as what the car was doing earlier. The 2nd-3rd shift didn't act up at all, figures. The temp outside here in Michigan was 43 degrees. I explained to the tech, that when it was around 20 degrees out the week before, the harsher shifts were much more apparent. I also told him that it would take the car atleast 10 min before the 1st-2nd shift started smooth out. He stated it was because the trans fluid was still quite thick and needed time to warm and thin out. Hmmm....I also asked him if the 4-cylinder loaner car I had would shift the same as my 5-cylinder. He said no, they have different transmissions. I said how is that, there are both 6sp autos. He said that the shift points are figured different in the tranny because the 5-cylinder has much more torque (177 lb) vs the 4cyl (128 lb) Anyway, he said he would reflash the open recall 24W4 code and do the adaptive reset. He indicated that the reflash would only affect the ECU and had nothing to do with the TCM. I again asked what the 24W4 code was for and he said it was for rough running and cold start issues. It had nothing to do with the tranny. I then left and went back to work. I received a call from the service advisor at 12 noon indicating the car was all set. I arrived about 1pm and then took the car out for a drive. As far as I could tell, the car still shifted the same. Went back to the dealer and stated I noticed no difference. I asked to speak to the tech, but he just left for lunch. Told the service advisor to have the tech call me. He said no problem. I received a call at work, around 3pm, but it was the service advisor. I asked him if the tech was available and he said he had left for the day. Like those hours, 9-3pm. Anyway, I asked him if the adaptive reset would take time to relearn my driving habits, and he said No. He indicated the car wouldn't shift any different from this point on. Off the subject, I also asked him what had happend to the other service advisor and he said he had quit. I asked him him how long he had been working with VW and he said just a short time, and that he was a service advisor for Chrysler for some time. Oh boy! At that point I ended the conversation. Well I suppose I can try a 3rd dealership on the other end of town, but from what I am told from a co-worker that purchased a car from them, he said would never take his car to them again, do to poor service. Well at this point not sure what more to do, except live with it or sell the vehicle. Not sure if I want to put more energy into fighting this situation. Next month I will take it back for the 10M check up, and I will see how I feel then.

    17. Member
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      02-17-2012 06:50 AM #17
      I'm sorry to hear of your bad experience with the dealer, not that I am surprised. Anyway, the tech seems as inept as usual as the car you drove was the 2.0, instead of the 2.5, but the the difference in power/torque will not change the shift feel of the transmission. If they are still using the 6-speed 09G and not something new, then there is no differentiation between transmissions from one car to another except maybe gear ratios (usually a diesel vs. gas). The TCM/ECM programming may be different whereas shift points are different but that is about it. Just keep driving it at this point and keep your receipts as records of service done/attempted. If you still notice a significant concern we can have you do a adaptive reset yourself just for peace of mind that it was actually done. In reagrds to the fluid being thick and needing to thin out yadda yadda yadda, well this is true but not your problem. If you lived in the northern most parts of Canada or Alaska than yes, but not in Michigan. I live in Minnesota and don't have this problem. However, on cold days (Michigan and Minnesota cold, not Alabama cold!) you will notice later shifts which may also be firmer but this normal and will only happen for maybe the first 5 minutes of driving. After this the shifts will return to normalcy. This is the TCM's doing as is used more as a preventative measure during cold start-ups, but banging and hard downshifts while rolling to a stop are not acceptable. Keep me updated.

      Brad

    18. Junior Member
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      02-17-2012 11:01 AM #18
      Quote Originally Posted by bjohns86 View Post
      I'm sorry to hear of your bad experience with the dealer, not that I am surprised. Anyway, the tech seems as inept as usual as the car you drove was the 2.0, instead of the 2.5, but the the difference in power/torque will not change the shift feel of the transmission. If they are still using the 6-speed 09G and not something new, then there is no differentiation between transmissions from one car to another except maybe gear ratios (usually a diesel vs. gas). The TCM/ECM programming may be different whereas shift points are different but that is about it. Just keep driving it at this point and keep your receipts as records of service done/attempted. If you still notice a significant concern we can have you do a adaptive reset yourself just for peace of mind that it was actually done. In reagrds to the fluid being thick and needing to thin out yadda yadda yadda, well this is true but not your problem. If you lived in the northern most parts of Canada or Alaska than yes, but not in Michigan. I live in Minnesota and don't have this problem. However, on cold days (Michigan and Minnesota cold, not Alabama cold!) you will notice later shifts which may also be firmer but this normal and will only happen for maybe the first 5 minutes of driving. After this the shifts will return to normalcy. This is the TCM's doing as is used more as a preventative measure during cold start-ups, but banging and hard downshifts while rolling to a stop are not acceptable. Keep me updated.

      Brad
      Thanks for the feedback Brad. I will keep you updated if something changes. Again, thanks so much for all your input. Rod

    19. Member CoolAirVw's Avatar
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      02-18-2012 05:13 AM #19
      Look your frustrated for no reason... this happens all the time. Mechanics are not psychics. You must duplicate your issue for them to give any consideration.

      Take it to them when its acting up. Go back, again and again, till it acts up. Getting it to "act up a little" aint gonna get them to make a repair. they have to feel it at its worst.

      Be nice. Work with them to get the car fixed. Dont be agressive or huffy puffy. This certainly isn't gonna make them want to help you.
      Auto trans fluid change or flush will not make a trans fail. Stop spreading the wives tale/urban myth.
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    20. Semi-n00b
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      05-16-2012 04:09 PM #20
      ive been to the dealer 12 times in 10 months for mostly the same reasons and have been completely calm and understanding and it really gets you no where because they just tell you that they cant duplicate it... until you speak to the manager or explain to them in a firm manner they'll continue to jerk you around.. just speaking from experience with vw service departments...

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