Cracks found in A380 "non critical" wing attachments

[MeineFolks'wagen]

For my aviation friends:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...engineers.html

[Ikey3125]

You realize every plane has cracks in it right?

Its the nature of metals and the fatigue put on them from flight.

[MeineFolks'wagen]

You realize every plane has cracks in it right?

Its the nature of metals and the fatigue put on them from flight.

I just posted it as a news story for the aviation buffs on here - nothing more, nothing less

[joness0154]

You realize every plane has cracks in it right?

Its the nature of metals and the fatigue put on them from flight.

Yeah, but after only a few years in service (the plane they detected the cracks on was pulled out of service in 2010) there's either a design issue or manufacturing problem.

[Ikey3125]

Yeah, but after only a few years in service (the plane they detected the cracks on was pulled out of service in 2010) there's either a design issue or manufacturing problem.

Or they'll rivet a beef up plate to the area and put it back in service.

Its how we fix airplanes...

[Gern_Blanston]

You realize every plane has cracks in it right?

Not, generally speaking, in numerous 1- or 2-year-old airplanes.

[joness0154]

Or they'll rivet a beef up plate to the area and put it back in service.

Its how we fix airplanes...

I understand that part.

What I'm trying to say is that cracking in a part that's so new is not normal under these circumstances. It can lead to some pretty serious ****.

[Ikey3125]

I understand that part.

What I'm trying to say is that cracking in a part that's so new is not normal under these circumstances. It can lead to some pretty serious ****.

True, lets blame the French...its what I do whenever I can

[edit] being this is cracked on 3 different aircraft...its probably gonna be a normal "issue"

[Gern_Blanston]

True, lets blame the French...its what I do whenever I can

+1

[Zombiee313]

Or they'll rivet a beef up plate to the area and put it back in service.

Its how we fix airplanes...

screw that...

[Anile_eight]

Or they'll rivet a beef up plate to the area and put it back in service.

Its how we fix airplanes...

...You can't rivet CFRP

It is very difficult to make consistent and equal parts from carbon fiber and other composites. On the other hand for metals it is much easier. The lay-up process for CFRP is and can be very complicated. They have been switching to robots with have certainly helped but extremely expensive. To repair CFRP (holes or patches) is a long and tiring process in the industry not only are there miles of paper work but the engineers must run countless models on the modification (depending where the patch is needed, key stress points or load paths etc) to insure it will work and is safe. There are still huge areas of unknown with CFRP and that is why boeing took forever to come out with the 787 and rightfully so. There will be a number of problems for years to come before we can get better at this.

[Zombiee313]

Or they'll rivet a beef up plate to the area and put it back in service.

Its how we fix airplanes that are made out of metal...

FTFY

ever heard of composites? yeah not all airplanes are made out of metal

[Ikey3125]

FTFY

ever heard of composites? yeah not all airplanes are made out of metal

I didn't read the article...and we don't use composites on structural parts of military aircraft...just skins. but what do I know, I've never fixed a plane...you must have


But reading the article finally...they have repair procedures in place...

Also the cracks are on ribs, imagine that, a structural component, therefore, probably an aluminum rib, so again, rivet beef up plate on.

[Anile_eight]

Just under half of the ribs are CFRP and the spars are made out of a special 7 series aluminum alloy. It really depends on where the cracks are and how high the stresses and their concentration are. (And yes I have a good amount of knowledge in here as im an aerospace engineer)

[chrismkay3]

...You can't rivet CFRP

bondo, lots and lots of bondo

and i'm only half kidding. in engine repair on composite (non-metal) parts, most repairs i've seen consist of cleaning up the crack and applying a high-strength filler material then some sort of protective film

i think the scarier part about new CFRP parts is they cannot be NDT'd the same way metal parts can. How do you detect cracks? you cannot liquid penetrant inspect it, you can't eddy current inspect it, how do you know?

[Zombiee313]

Just under half of the ribs are CFRP and the spars are made out of a special 7 series aluminum alloy. It really depends on where the cracks are and how high the stresses and their concentration are. (And yes I have a good amount of knowledge in here as im an aerospace engineer)

Why would the do the ribs half and half like that?

How would they repair a structural rib that is constructed out of CFRP?

[Zombiee313]

I didn't read the article...and we don't use composites on structural parts of military aircraft...just skins. but what do I know, I've never fixed a plane...you must have


But reading the article finally...they have repair procedures in place...

Also the cracks are on ribs, imagine that, a structural component, therefore, probably an aluminum rib, so again, rivet beef up plate on.

of course they have repair procedures in place

of course the cracks will be on structural components... those are the parts of the plane that handle the stresses of flying... Also I highly doubt that the composite sections have a bunch of metal bracing... that would defeat the WHOLE POINT of being built mainly from CFRP. The article does not specifically mention whether it is in a CFRP or aluminum part of the aircraft that is cracking. I love how you automatically know how exactly how they would fix it without knowing anything about it..... And yes you are right it if was an aluminum rib they could rivet a beef up plate there.... but if it is two different components I am pretty sure they can't do that... also if it was a composite you can't just rivet into that, especially if it is not a flat surface or at the end of the rib(like they said in the article the location is at)!!

here take yourself to school and learn a little ok
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon-...forced_polymer
http://www.sandwichpanels.org/articles/wing_repair.html

I have fixed plenty of planes... remember I used to be an A-10 CC.... I KNOW we have talked about that before... do you really want me to answer your sarcastic question of what you know??... your response is yet anther reason why I don't like you and think that you give Air Force mechanics a bad name

[Zombiee313]

bondo, lots and lots of bondo

and i'm only half kidding. in engine repair on composite (non-metal) parts, most repairs i've seen consist of cleaning up the crack and applying a high-strength filler material then some sort of protective film

i think the scarier part about new CFRP parts is they cannot be NDT'd the same way metal parts can. How do you detect cracks? you cannot liquid penetrant inspect it, you can't eddy current inspect it, how do you know?

Yeah I have seen that repair method used on engine parts and some non-structural composite parts.

They can use ultrasonic, thermal, and other methods that do not depend on magnets or conductivity.... also check visually for delamination, visible cracks, or loose fibers

[Ikey3125]

I have fixed plenty of planes... remember I used to be an A-10 CC.... I KNOW we have talked about that before... do you really want me to answer your sarcastic question of what you know??... your response is yet anther reason why I don't like you and think that you give Air Force mechanics a bad name

Oh yeah...now I remember you...as for AF mechs a bad name...think we all give ourselves a bad name...

But FYI, heavies suck...I wanna go back to fighters so bad...

But still...I blame the French...seen a show, think it was on Discovery, about building the A380, and it seemed that the jet was rushed...

[Zombiee313]

Yeah heavies do suck

I blame France for everything.... Or I do like to blame Canada a lot too

Every jet now-a-days is rushed... and if it isn't rushed then it goes MASSIVELY overbudget

[gr8shandini]

Yeah I have seen that repair method used on engine parts and some non-structural composite parts.

They can use ultrasonic, thermal, and other methods that do not depend on magnets or conductivity.... also check visually for delamination, visible cracks, or loose fibers

I've seen it on primary structure as well. It all depends on the part and the type/extent of damage.

Also, you forgot the tap test. It's usually the first step in NDI of composites. Just a simple hammer with a flex shaft that will bounce on properly laid up composites and pretty much fall dead on delaminated stuff.

[Anile_eight]

Why would the do the ribs half and half like that?

How would they repair a structural rib that is constructed out of CFRP?

First off it's Airbus... They done done crazier things.

The inner ribs are made mostly out of the 7 series aluminum as it is a much more critical area which needs to be structurally sounds. Airbus can't take chances in that area. The chances are to do with the lack of relative knowledge of CFRP comapred to the aluminum. The outer ribs just past quarter span is cfrp to save weight.

There are a couple different ways that you can repair cfrp but i'll assume Airbus has a proprietary way of doing this depending on where and what the damages are. A "simple" patch and lots of FEA on the work must be done. If it is not structural component it is much easier, similar to fiber glass repair. Structural parts like holes in the wrong spot of manufacturing defects. The engineers would go through a very thorough process the company has planned out to decide if they can repair it and then what kind of repair they must make. If not they will have to make the component over again. This is a relatively unknown and hard part of cfrp.... lift span, repairs, cyclic loading, delamination etc...

[yz1337]

Wow, and I thought fighter pilots were a bunch of whiny babies lol, it's community wide!

[Anile_eight]

Wow, and I thought fighter pilots were a bunch of whiny babies lol, it's community wide!

huh?

[yz1337]

huh?

forgot to quote, was poking fun at ikey and zombie, fighter community babies

[Ikey3125]

forgot to quote, was poking fun at ikey and zombie, fighter community babies

we take after our pilots

[NZTIGUAN]

If they can build and repair composite glider wings that will take the stresses shown in this pic then I don't think these repairs are as difficult as some seem to suggest. It's just a matter of new technology that needs new systems to handle it, doesn't mean it isn't just as good or possibly even better than other construction methods.




Cheers

[J-Tim]

To be fair to froggies, all wings for A380 are manufactured in England and then shipped to Toulouse for final assembly.

[Anile_eight]

forgot to quote, was poking fun at ikey and zombie, fighter community babies

Lol I see.

J-tim u are correct.

Nztiguan:

Stresses are different then deflection as shown in the picture of the glider. The stresses are much less in gliders than that in the a380 therefore allowing simpler repairs. The airline industry has beyond absurd standard which forces the airlines and companies to install rigorous repair specifications and methods. There are a number of fea analysis that are requires. Physically its not overly difficult but technically it was challenging.

It's just a matter of new technology that needs new systems to handle it

I dont agree. Composites have been around for more than thirty years in the industry, they just haven't been uses in this magnitude.
Its the issue with the area of unknown which is the unpredictivity cfrp. The test results have a large range of results comparing them to aluminum especially A or B basis.

[J-Tim]

To anyone interested, there is a BBC series, called "How to Build:". One of the episodes is called "A Super-Jumbo Wing", where it goes into details on how an A380 wing is built, fitted and tested.

Fascinating stuff.

[Zombiee313]

If they can build and repair composite glider wings that will take the stresses shown in this pic then I don't think these repairs are as difficult as some seem to suggest. It's just a matter of new technology that needs new systems to handle it, doesn't mean it isn't just as good or possibly even better than other construction methods.




Cheers

Who would want to fly a plane with no engines??

I bet those same people would jump out of a perfectly good airplane too huh?

[Zombiee313]

To be fair to froggies, all wings for A380 are manufactured in England and then shipped to Toulouse for final assembly.

The french must have installed the wing wrong

[Ikey3125]

To be fair to froggies, all wings for A380 are manufactured in England and then shipped to Toulouse for final assembly.

But didn't the Froggies design it?

[Anile_eight]

Who would want to fly a plane with no engines??

I bet those same people would jump out of a perfectly good airplane too huh?

Haha, I have my glider's license as well as my private license and let me tell you it is certainly an awesome experience being up there! No vibrations, a little wisp from the air rushing by but it is so peaceful and so much fun you can stay up for hours if you know what you are doing!

And no, never have been sky diving.

[Zombiee313]

Haha, I have my glider's license as well as my private license and let me tell you it is certainly an awesome experience being up there! No vibrations, a little wisp from the air rushing by but it is so peaceful and so much fun you can stay up for hours if you know what you are doing!

And no, never have been sky diving.

I was joking when I was making fun of gliders.

My uncle has been flying gliders for years and years and years.... he used to do competitions also... no real idea how you can do that but yeah.

My dad and I went and checked out a two seater glider for his club to buy (out in California) and I have always wanted to go up in it but I just haven't. He lives in Texas and I live in California.