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    1. 02-20-2004 05:46 PM #1
      Are there any stick shift on the market that shift like a normal manual (not paddle, talking about normal manual gated shifter) but w/out a clucth that could wear? I'm talking about being about to give the attribute of a clutched tranny with the same feedback and being able to double clutch, etc. Also it must have a clutch pedal. I'm sick of changing clutch but I don't want to give up that shifting action.

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      02-20-2004 05:47 PM #2
      Someone was telling me the old beetles used to have something along these lines

    3. 02-20-2004 05:47 PM #3
      vw had it back in the day with some of their beetles...
      Why did I buy another VW?

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      02-20-2004 05:47 PM #4
      SO you wanan double-clutch without a clutch?

    5. Banned Isis187's Avatar
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      02-20-2004 05:48 PM #5
      no

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      02-20-2004 05:48 PM #6
      Saab had this a few years ago as an option on 900 Turbos. I think it might have been called Sensonic.

      Edit: Link and Article. Sweet, I was right about Saab

      http://www.edmunds.com/news/in....html


      http://autozine.kyul.net/techn...l.htm

      Transmission

      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

      Clutchless Manual
      Clutchless manual transmission is simply a manual gearbox mated to an electronic-controlled clutch. The car has two pedals only, without clutch pedal. When changing gears, the driver just need to push the shifter. Sensors monitor the pressure of shifter and accelerator, in case the shifter is pushed and the accelerator is loosened, computer will signal the clutch to disengage the linkage between engine and gearbox, and continuing monitor the progress of gearchange. When the gearchange is finished, the clutch engages again..
      As I remember, the earliest clutchless manual was developed by small engineering firms rather than car makers. Ferrari Mondial T and Ruf 911 were among the earliest cars to feature it as option. It did not catch the attention of big car makers until Saab introduced its version called "Sensonic" in around 1995. Road test found Saab 900 Sensonic ran as fast as the manual version.

      Clutchless manual costs just a fraction more than a conventional manual. It relieves driving effort, making gearshift easier while having no disadvantages of automatic transmission. It is a logical step to improve conventional manual transmission, although being a small step.
      Advantage: Cheap, light, no much performance loss.
      Disadvantage: No full automatic mode. Not as quick or smooth as Selespeed etc.
      Who use it ? Saab Sensonic system, Renault Zoom system, Alpina B10, Mercedes A-class, MCC Smart.


      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

      Automated Manual Gearbox
      Ferrari F355 F1 - Experience how Schumacher shifts his battle car
      0-60 mph : 4.7 sec
      0-100 mph : 10.8 sec
      0-1/4 mile : 13.1 sec / 111 mph
      Kerb weight : 1425 kg
      Having read the above data, you might think this must be an ordinary F355. No, it is actually the latest semi-automatic version, F355 F1. This shows the most important advantage of the manual-based gearbox over Porsche Tiptronic etc.: there is virtually no performance loss.

      As indicating by its name, F355 F1's gearbox was developed from Ferrari's Formula One semi-automatic gearbox which made its debut in 1989, powering Nigel Mansell's 640 racer to win the opening race - Brazil GP - from Prost and Senna. (I can still remember how stunning when I watched it live from TV). Although the Ferrari didn't win championship that year, it demonstrated the superiority and feasibility of semi-automatic, eventually became standard for every F1 team.

      Ferrari's system used in F355 F1 was based on the 6-speed manual gearbox of the standard F355, but with the traditional mechanical-link shifting mechanism replaced by an electronic clutch and a high-pressure hydraulic shift actuator. It had 3 different operating modes. In normal city driving, most drivers may choose the fully automatic mode, in which the computer made gearshift automatically by analysing engine rev, load and throttle. However, it wasn't as smooth as a true automatic gearbox because of the lack of hydraulic torque converter.


      For quick drive, push the switch on transmission tunnel to sport position, the gearbox will be under the driver's control. Gearshift is implemented by flicking the large paddles mounted at the steering column and behind the steering wheel. One paddle for upshift and another for downshift.
      The most superior of the gearbox is how well it integrate clutch action and gearshift together. Within milliseconds since the driver press the gearshift paddle, the computer starts simulating how Michael Schumacher's feet work - ease the electronic throttle, then disengage the electronic clutch, and then signal the hydraulic actuator to shift to another gear - all these actions are taken progressively and smoothly.

      During hard acceleration, upshift will be made at over 8,000 rpm and the whole process takes as little as 0.15 sec ! This is why the F1 gearbox introduced virtually no performance loss compare with the standard 6-speed manual. In reality, it might be even quicker than a manual car during cornering, because the driver no longer need to take care of clutch and throttle, nor wasting time to travel his hand from steering wheel to gear lever mounted on central tunnel. He can concentrate on steering and gearshift only.

      The last operating mode is a medium semi-automatic mode. In this mode, gearchange will be made at only 6,000 rpm. This provide a less urgent acceleration but smoother shift quality. It might not be faster than the fully automatic mode, but it involves the driver so to give more driving pleasure. This philosophy is exactly the same as Porsche's Tiptronic.

      Internally the F1 system is called Selespeed. It was developed in conjunction by Ferrari and Magneti-Marelli. It weighs and cost half way between manual and automatic transmission, but provides the advantages of both. Therefore, Ferrari expects 90% of the customers will choose it instead of the manual one.

      In 360 Modena, Ferrari kept the hardware unchanged but improved the downshift quality via new software. Flick the downshift paddle, the electronic throttle will speed up the engine automatically, increasing the engine rev to match the new ratio thus guarantee a smoother transition.

      Alfa Romeo's Selespeed
      Parent company FIAT used to sponsor Ferrari's F1 program. During the past 20 years, the prancing horse did not won FIAT any title, no matter driver's or team championship. The first fruit is perhaps the Selespeed semi-automatic transmission, which was invented by the F1 team and converted for F355 F1 used. Now Ferrari rewarded its parent company with this technology, transferring Selespeed to Fiat's rising arm Alfa Romeo.
      This created the 156 Selespeed. Like the F355 F1's system, the Selespeed is a hydraulic actuator added to the normal manual gearbox and incorporates clever electronics. Instead of six-speed, the Alfa unit has 5 ratios like its conventional
      sisters. The operation is 90% the same as the Ferrari's, only shift smoother and slower. Gearshift is actuated by the two buttons located on the steering wheel (Ferrari use 2 paddles at the steering column). After pressing the button, the
      Magneti Marelli fuel injection and electronic throttle control will reduce the engine output, then actuate the clutch and then change gears by fast-acting hydraulic actuators. After that, clutch engages again and the engine resume power. The whole process normally takes 1 to 1.5 seconds, but it could be reduced to 0.7 sec when it is running in "Sport" mode. However, shift quality in Sport mode is not as good as normal mode.

      The computer select "Sport" mode automatically if the driver engage more than 60% of the throttle travel and shift at
      above 5,000 rpm. Alternatively, the driver can select "City" mode which simulates a fully automatic gearbox.

      BMW M-Sequential (SMG / SMG II)
      At nearly the same time as the F355 F1, BMW introduced a similar manual-based semi-automatic into M3. Basically it uses high-pressure hydraulic actuator to shift gear just like Ferrari's system, but uses conventional shift lever. Manual shifting is the same as the sequential box uses in BTCC racers: just a push / pull action. A button located near the shifter panel is used to change to automatic mode.
      M-Sequential (or SMG)-equipped M3 E36 had slight performance loss over its manual brother. More delay could be felt than Ferrari's system too. However, BMW claimed in real world like Nurburgring race track, it actually out-performed the manual car because it enables the driver to concentrate more on steering, throttle and brakes.

      In E46 M3, the SMG was developed into SMG II, offering even quicker shift and 11 different modes - 5 automatic modes and 6 manual modes with different speed versus smoothness. At the hottest S6 mode, gearshift takes as little as 80ms.

      Advantage: Cheap, compact, as quick as manual, engaging
      Disadvantage: Less refined than automatic
      Who use it ? Ferrari 360 Modena F1, BMW M3 E46, Alfa Romeo 156 Selespeed.

      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

      Gearshift time comparison
      Here lists the minimum shift time of the most popular automated manual gearbox:
      Gearbox (car) Min. shift time
      BMW SMG II (M3 E46) 80 ms
      Ferrari F1 (Maserati 4200GT) 80 ms
      Ferrari F1 (360 F1) 150 ms
      Ferrari F1 (Enzo) 150 ms
      Bugatti Veyron (proposed) 200 ms
      Ferrari F1 (575M) 220 ms
      BMW SMG (M3 E36) 220 ms
      Aston Martin Vanquish 250 ms
      BMW SSG (3-series) 250ms (150ms for 1st to 2nd)
      Alfa Selespeed (156 Selespeed) (old) 700 ms

      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

      Twin-Clutch Gearbox
      Twin-clutch gearbox is undoubtedly a revolutionary technology for manual transmission. Its impact to the automotive world is even greater than automated manual gearbox such Ferrari F1 system. Twin-clutch gearbox was first put into production by BorgWarner, which calls it "DualTronic". It was first used in Audi TT 3.2 in the name "DSG" (Direct-Shift Gearbox).
      Like automated manual gearbox, BorgWarner뭩 DualTronic can operate as a semi-automatic, where the driver changes gears via buttons, paddles or conventional shifter. There is no clutch pedal, because the clutch is automatic while the gearshift is implemented by electro-hydraulic actuators. For relax driving, there is also a full automatic mode, where computer determines which gear to be selected.

      So, what뭩 the difference between it and other automated manual gearbox?

      Unlike conventional gearboxes, DualTronic uses 2 clutches - one clutch connects to the odd gears (1st, 3rd and 5th) while another clutch connects to even gears (2nd, 4th and 6th). This enable it to shift far smoother and faster than conventional gearbox.

      Why? let us see how a conventional gearbox work first: when a driver wants to change from one gear to another, he presses down the clutch pedal, thus the engine is disconnected from the gearbox. During this period, no power is transmitted to the gearbox, thus the driver can shift gears. When it is done, he engage the clutch again, then power is again transmitted to the gearbox. As you can see, the power delivery change from ON to OFF to ON during gearshift. How smooth the change depends on how skillful the driver cooperate the clutch and throttle. Automated gearbox like Ferrari F1 is similar. The only difference is that the clutch and gearshift are operated by computer via hydraulic actuators. The ON-OFF-ON power delivery still exist. In contrast, an automatic transmission with torque converter does not has this problem.

      Twin-clutch gearbox can overcome the ON-OFF-ON problem too, thanks to the twin-clutch design which enable it to "pre-select" the next gear. Take this example: assuming the car is accelerating at 2nd. The clutch controlling the even gears is now engaged while another clutch is disengaged. From the data taken at throttle position and rev counter, the computer knows that the driver will select 3rd soon, thus it will connect the 3rd gear. Because at this moment the clutch for odd gears is disengaged, the pre-selection of 3rd will not affect the 2nd gear currently running. When the driver touches the gear-shift paddle, computer signals the even-gear clutch to disengage and simultaneously the odd-gear clutch to engage. In this way, gear is changed from 2nd to 3rd instantaneously, without any OFF period, without any delay - the only delay is caused by the smooth disengagement and engagement of the two clutches. Therefore power delivery is smooth and uninterrupted.

      Pre-selection of gears quicken the shift a lot. Upshift takes just 8ms, 10 times quicker than BMW SMG II which is the fastest automated manual gearbox currently available. Downshift is less impressive, because the gearbox need to wait for the throttle blip to match gearbox speed with engine speed. Change down a gear therefore takes 600ms. Changing down a few gears could be more complicated. The most complicated is from 6th to 2nd (both are controlled by the same clutch while the distance between the two gears is the longest). It needs to change to 5th (controlled by another clutch) temporarily before 2nd is selected. This takes 900ms.

      To package 2 clutches in limited space, BorgWarner decided to use multi-plate clutches which are far smaller in diameter than conventional clutches. Multi-plate clutches also allow finer control of engagement speed versus smoothness. Depending on driving style, computer can easily change the gearshift speed / smoothness setting.
      Advantage: Gearshift ultra-smooth, pretty fast.
      Disadvantage: More complex construction, can it handle a lot of torque?
      Who use it ? Audi TT 3.2


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      Modified by JrodVW at 5:55 PM 2-20-2004


    7. Geriatric Member AKADriver's Avatar
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      02-20-2004 05:54 PM #7
      Um, obviously not.

      The feel of a clutch is determined by its friction characteristics. Friction begets wear.

      If it doesn't have a clutch, it has a torque converter, and a torque converter can't do that stuff.

      Splinter - Team Post-Killing Ninja
      I don't practice llanteria

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      02-20-2004 05:56 PM #8
      Quote, originally posted by AKADriver »
      Um, obviously not.

      The feel of a clutch is determined by its friction characteristics. Friction begets wear.

      If it doesn't have a clutch, it has a torque converter, and a torque converter can't do that stuff.

      I saw this and thought you were wrong at first, but the originator is asking a question that should be easily answered with a No.

      I thought he was asking for a system that included shifting, but not a clutch PEDAL.


    9. 02-20-2004 05:59 PM #9
      Great stuff, JrodVW. Very informative.

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      02-20-2004 06:01 PM #10
      He wants to use a pedal and be able to double-clutch, all without an actual clutch..

      Doesn't make sense? He could get a TipTronic style tranny and add a bogus clutch pedal with a big spring behind it..


    11. 02-20-2004 06:06 PM #11
      Thanks for the info JRod

      I've been thinking, with all these fly-by-wire throttle system and active steering, etc...why can't someone make a "non wearing" clutch-emulating shifter with the same attribute of a clutch tranny. I know it's gonna involve the use of a computer module as a "middle man" between the drive and the tranny. A THIRD pedal is a must, but it can be a "dummy" pedal that work with the computer. For example, you can emulate the feeling of a clutch slip with some type of lockable "differential" within the clutch system. I dunno if I'm making any sense here though.


    12. 02-20-2004 06:18 PM #12
      Before my Bug, I had a Mercedes A Class. Not available in the US as far as I am aware. This car had the clutchless manual option.
      It is an extremely good system. The gearbox and also clutch is actually a perfectly normal and bog standard stick shift assembly. But the clutch is actually controlled by hydraulics and a computer (So no clutch pedal of course). With various sensors in the shift lever so the computer knows when you intend to shift. And also extra sensors on the throttle and brake pedal, to aid the computers control of the clutch action and throttle etc. It really did work very well indeed. it still makes me wonder why more cars don't have a system like this. For me it was the perfect compromise between a regular stick shift, and an auto slush box.
      Unlike a regular auto, it has zero performance penalties. Top speed, 0-60 and mileage are all identical to the standard stick shift + clutch pedal.
      Also, the clutchless manual option costs less than half what a regular auto option costs. Whats more, it was impossible to stall. Really slick stuff

      Oddly enough, an almost identical system can be retro-fitted to many cars. Companies that modify the controls of cars for disabled people do such conversions.


    13. 02-20-2004 06:33 PM #13
      Quote, originally posted by MeetleBan »
      Before my Bug, I had a Mercedes A Class. Not available in the US as far as I am aware. This car had the clutchless manual option.
      It is an extremely good system. The gearbox and also clutch is actually a perfectly normal and bog standard stick shift assembly. But the clutch is actually controlled by hydraulics and a computer (So no clutch pedal of course). With various sensors in the shift lever so the computer knows when you intend to shift. And also extra sensors on the throttle and brake pedal, to aid the computers control of the clutch action and throttle etc. It really did work very well indeed. it still makes me wonder why more cars don't have a system like this. For me it was the perfect compromise between a regular stick shift, and an auto slush box.
      Unlike a regular auto, it has zero performance penalties. Top speed, 0-60 and mileage are all identical to the standard stick shift + clutch pedal.
      Also, the clutchless manual option costs less than half what a regular auto option costs. Whats more, it was impossible to stall. Really slick stuff

      Oddly enough, an almost identical system can be retro-fitted to many cars. Companies that modify the controls of cars for disabled people do such conversions.

      Thats what I'm talking about...but jsut let the driver control the clutch instead of the computer...altho it might feel a bit unaturally when you engage the "clutch" pedal...later on maybe you can improve on the system and use some kind of power transfer clutch system (to emulate the slip and grab) like a limited slip differential in a car. Some LSD has a clutch system and other has planetary gears. When you wanna emulate a slipping clutch, depending on clucth/gas pedal input, the computer can cause a "slip" like electronic traction control system.

      Here's the problem: whenever I shift I need to take my foot off the gas...or else I get disoriented. I also have to step on some sort of clutch pedal. I know this is gonna sound silly, but I tried playing the arcade racing games where you can shift manual, but w/out a clutch pedal, I can't seem to get a hang of it.


    14. 02-20-2004 06:37 PM #14
      Quote, originally posted by vduBen »
      Someone was telling me the old beetles used to have something along these lines

      my Bug has an auto-stick. it has a torque converter, and there are contacts in the shift handle that take the car out of gear when you move it. it's not necessary to 'double clutch' although rev matching, heel and toeing, and downshifting are easy to do.

      it's a regular gated style shifter, with 3 forward speeds and 1 revers.


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      02-20-2004 06:37 PM #15
      Quote, originally posted by 87GolfKart »

      Here's the problem: whenever I shift I need to take my foot off the gas...or else I get disoriented. I also have to step on some sort of clutch pedal. I know this is gonna sound silly, but I tried playing the arcade racing games where you can shift manual, but w/out a clutch pedal, I can't seem to get a hang of it.

      I dunno.. how long have you been driving? How serious of a problem do you have between shifts with taking the foot off the gas?

      If I were to have an auto-manual (clutchless) stick shift, I'd want to be rid of the pedal as well..

      I get what you're saying about the video games, but then once you're used to it, I think it won't be a problem anymore. Think about the other games where you use the "paddles" to shift.. No need for a clutch there..


    16. 02-20-2004 06:49 PM #16
      has anyone ever noticed, while watching wrc, that some of the cars' sticks are moving by themselves, like it is an automatic, yet the stick moves into the apropriate gear position, it is still a manual? Is this so it can be a manual and automatic at the same time. Benifits of both I guess?

    17. 02-20-2004 06:49 PM #17
      I know in India, they have kits that you can buy for your 5-spd manual tranny car which somehow allows you to not use the clutch.

      I'm not sure how it works, but its pretty much still a manual car without the clutch.

      Its only for small engined cars (800cc to 1000cc).


    18. Member dorifto's Avatar
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      02-20-2004 06:51 PM #18
      i read in DUB magazine that Kobe Bryant had one of those clutchless systems put in his wife's murcielago. all you had to do was touch the sensor on the shift knob and the clutch would disengage to allow you to shift.

      i thought it was the first of its kind until i read this thread.

      bazinga!

      psn: dorifto13

    19. Moderator PsyberVW's Avatar
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      02-20-2004 06:54 PM #19
      Quote, originally posted by dorifto »
      i read in DUB magazine that Kobe Bryant had one of those clutchless systems put in his wife's murcielago. all you had to do was touch the sensor on the shift knob and the clutch would disengage to allow you to shift.

      i thought it was the first of its kind until i read this thread.

      Didn't someone else have the touch-shift thing? Wasn't it BMW? I think they used to be on the left though.. But it's a regular gated 5 spd fwd/1 reverse stick, that shifts without a clutch..


    20. Member REDLINED600's Avatar
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      02-20-2004 06:56 PM #20
      Quote, originally posted by toyotagardner »
      has anyone ever noticed, while watching wrc, that some of the cars' sticks are moving by themselves, like it is an automatic, yet the stick moves into the apropriate gear position, it is still a manual? Is this so it can be a manual and automatic at the same time. Benifits of both I guess?

      i think they can shift from the steering wheel as well. still a manual. sequntial though


    21. 02-20-2004 06:56 PM #21
      The WRC trannies are sequential (like a motorcyle).

      They are most often operated by a very quick hydrolic linkage that is controlled by rings that sit coaxially with the steering wheel. Its hard to explain but if very similar in concept to the F1 paddles.

      As a failsafe the driver can switch over the stick if they need to.

      This webpage sucks, but these guys make the WRC sequentials and a lot of other racing gearboxes.
      http://www.hewland-engineering...E.htm


    22. Member whitemike's Avatar
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      02-21-2004 02:56 AM #22
      old school porsches had em, called sportomatics...hence they are the ancestors of the new tiptronic trannys.

    23. 02-21-2004 03:06 AM #23
      Quote, originally posted by 87GolfKart »
      why can't someone make a "non wearing" clutch-emulating shifter with the same attribute of a clutch tranny. I know it's gonna involve the use of a computer module as a "middle man" between the drive and the tranny.

      We talked about this in the Car Lounge a couple of months ago. Basically a drive-by-wire clutch pedal used to override the clutching operation in a SMG/DSG-type gearbox actuator. Toss in a drive-by-wire H-shifter and you have a car that can go from fully automatic to fully manual depending on your mood.


    24. 02-21-2004 03:08 AM #24
      Quote, originally posted by whitemike »
      old school porsches had em, called sportomatics...hence they are the ancestors of the new tiptronic trannys.

      i thought these had torque converters, but im not sure.


    25. 02-21-2004 07:26 AM #25
      svtfecus.. thanks, for the info

    26. 02-21-2004 08:00 AM #26
      Some Hyundai's in the UK have it, as do Merc A-Classes, and Clios.

    27. Geriatric Member Obin Robinson's Avatar
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      02-21-2004 08:07 AM #27
      Quote, originally posted by SHOstoppa »

      i thought these had torque converters, but im not sure.

      here's more crap-o-matic info than anyone should ever know:

      http://www.sportomatic.com/stuff/Default.htm

      obin

      "We're society's crowbar. They hate us, they never want to acknowledge the dirty jobs they give us to do, but when the job is done they never throw us away - they just slip us back in the toolbox until they need us the next time. And there will always be a next time."-Jim Hooper. Beneath the Visiting Moon: Images of Combat in Southern Africa

    28. 02-21-2004 08:37 AM #28
      Zero Shift.

      Racecar Engineering magazine did a feature on it a couple of issues back. Basically Clutchless shifting with NO lift, NO break in the transmission of power. It's currently being tested in a TVR Cerbera.

      The system only applies to the gear selection mechanism, so most of the original gearbox is unchanged. The article doesn't give a whole lot of info on it since it's such sensitive technology. Very Cool stuff.


    29. 02-21-2004 08:42 AM #29
      Quote, originally posted by tifosi2k2 »
      Zero Shift.

      Racecar Engineering magazine did a feature on it a couple of issues back. Basically Clutchless shifting with NO lift, NO break in the transmission of power. It's currently being tested in a TVR Cerbera.

      The system only applies to the gear selection mechanism, so most of the original gearbox is unchanged. The article doesn't give a whole lot of info on it since it's such sensitive technology. Very Cool stuff.

      PDF of the article in question


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